Q: Could eventual Transylvanian German duchies be part of the German Empire?

Relate to my ongoing TL about the German Empire, I was thinking about the following situation:

Given that Hungary could be an independent Kingdom by 1870 that would either implode due to the internal ethnic disputes or maybe be partitioned by its neighbors in a Polish style, the eventual German duchies (or whatever similar entity) in Transylvania/Banat resulting of such a division could be interested (and allowed to?) in joining the German Empire?

I find this idea quite interesting (because of the many consequences it could have for the future) but I'm afraid it could be a bit implausible, given the big distance that separates them from Austria/Germany, not only phisically but also socially and economically. I don't know how feasible was to keep distant exclaves by the 1870s, even if they could be tipped as neutral/demilitarised for not concerning the neighbor nations too much.

My idea is replacing the useless colonial projects of the OTL German Empire by the interest in keeping German-populated exclaves across Eastern Europe (in a combination of satisfying both imperalist/colonial and irredentist movements in Germany).
 
Hungary claimed that Transsilvania belonged to them since the middle ages... And although Transsilvania had a independet regional gouvernment till 1866, there were a lot more hungarians than germans living there...
Also, when Hungary attempted to get independence in 1848, they also claimed Transsilvania as a part of the Kingdom of Hungary.
The same thing happened, when Hungary finally got independence in 1867.
Also, why would the Austrian part of the k.u.k - monarchy try to keep these german enclaves? It's not like they were of any economic importance.... and there were far bigger german enclaves in Transleithanien (the Hungarian part of Austria-Hungary) - for example the Burgenland, some regions in the Banat, etc.... And especially the Burgenland was located right behind the Austian border... it would have made far more sense if they decided to claim that one instead of some duchys far away which they would only reach through Hungarian territory or by occupying Rumania.
To come to a conclusion, I don't think Austria would be interested in those regions and Hungary wouldn't let them leave the Kingdom of Hungary....

PS.: Why do you think those duchys would be interested in joining the German Empire? And why would the German Empire be interested in some duchys that remote?
 
My idea is replacing the useless colonial projects of the OTL German Empire by the interest in keeping German-populated exclaves across Eastern Europe (in a combination of satisfying both imperalist/colonial and irredentist movements in Germany).

Were there a lot originally? Slavs seem to be more prevalent in Eastern Europe than Germans.
 
Hungary claimed that Transsilvania belonged to them since the middle ages... And although Transsilvania had a independet regional gouvernment till 1866, there were a lot more hungarians than germans living there...
Also, when Hungary attempted to get independence in 1848, they also claimed Transsilvania as a part of the Kingdom of Hungary.
The same thing happened, when Hungary finally got independence in 1867.
Also, why would the Austrian part of the k.u.k - monarchy try to keep these german enclaves? It's not like they were of any economic importance.... and there were far bigger german enclaves in Transleithanien (the Hungarian part of Austria-Hungary) - for example the Burgenland, some regions in the Banat, etc.... And especially the Burgenland was located right behind the Austian border... it would have made far more sense if they decided to claim that one instead of some duchys far away which they would only reach through Hungarian territory or by occupying Rumania.
To come to a conclusion, I don't think Austria would be interested in those regions and Hungary wouldn't let them leave the Kingdom of Hungary....

PS.: Why do you think those duchys would be interested in joining the German Empire? And why would the German Empire be interested in some duchys that remote?

Well, first of all I was thinking about a situation like the described in my TL (check my signature, there is a map inside) where Hungary is fully independent but is set to collapse due to internal tensions (in a fashion similar to OTL the AH Empire, but only reduced to the Hungarian side, while the Austrian is about to join the German Empire).

So, these Transylvanian German duchies are endorsed just out of a situation of implosion of the Hungarian state; with a stable Hungary, of course, as you say, it's pretty implausible that could happen.

Then, we have this situation: Hungary loses most of their non-Magyar lands due to internal turmoil, that eventually pushes their minorities to seek their own ways. Among other entities, there are n German duchies than enjoy some sort of quasi-independence or de facto independence. But, of course, these tiny duchies are pretty vulnerable by their own, in the long term, among other powerful neighbours.

Given than the political circumstances in Hungary have boosted their creation, they might seek for the protection of some power or rather expect to be reabsorbed/puppetized by Hungary when it would become stable again.

But well, considering that the German Empire was just a confederation of German states, they might opt for demanding membership as they are now German states, even if physically disconnected from the main bulk.

For me, the key point if we assume that they are eventually created out of these special circumstances, it is not if these duchies are interested in joining the German Empire, because it might be the most logical step if they want to be protected and not rebasorbed, but if the German Empire could be interested in admitting them, and most importantly, which consequences could have such move.

As you say, Germany would not be especially interested from an economical point of view, but they could have an strategic value. If, instead Bismarck, a more nationalist and irredentist chancelor is in charge, he could argue the typical irredentist argument.

Were there a lot originally? Slavs seem to be more prevalent in Eastern Europe than Germans.

Yes, but Germans still formed a majority in certain areas, like the Banat, South Transylvania or some cities in the Baltic or Slovakia.
 
Well this ethnic map doesn't seem to have germans in any majority. However many could have left after end of ww1. Still they are going to be minority so unless a full colonisation with ethnic cleansing is attempted well I don't see it.

According to wikipedia there was only 211,748 in 1880 in Romania region.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transylvanian_Saxons#mediaviewer/File:Romania_1930_ethnic_map_EN.png

In banat for example in the short lived banat republic the Germans were only the second largest ethnic group.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banat_Republic#Population

However there will be more than OTL if magyarization is avoided.
 
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Well this ethnic map doesn't seem to have germans in any majority. However many could have left after end of ww1. Still they are going to be minority so unless a full colonisation with ethnic cleansing is attempted well I don't see it.

According to wikipedia there was only 211,748 in 1880 in Romania region.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transylvanian_Saxons#mediaviewer/File:Romania_1930_ethnic_map_EN.png

In banat for example in the short lived banat republic the Germans were only the second largest ethnic group.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banat_Republic#Population

Even if not the first ethnic group (they were first depending on the zoning), Germans were the traditional elite in both Swabian Banat and Saxon Transylvania (not Transylvania as a whole). In many issues, 'Vlach' (Romanian) people were more close to them than to Magyars, who used to oppress them in the past.

I think (semi-) independent entities in these areas ruled by local Germans would work quite well and be socially stable, furthermore if some of the Magyars are expelled elsewhere, something that would happen if there is a conflict against them).

However there will be more than OTL if magyarization is avoided.

Yes, this will be avoided as Buda loses control of these territories.


Well, I think the southern Volga issue is really too much far, but it would be so fab :D
 
Even if not the first ethnic group (they were first depending on the zoning), Germans were the traditional elite in both Swabian Banat and Saxon Transylvania (not Transylvania as a whole). In many issues, 'Vlach' (Romanian) people were more close to them than to Magyars, who used to oppress them in the past.

I think (semi-) independent entities in these areas ruled by local Germans would work quite well and be socially stable, furthermore if some of the Magyars are expelled elsewhere, something that would happen if there is a conflict against them).



Yes, this will be avoided as Buda loses control of these territories.



Well, I think the southern Volga issue is really too much far, but it would be so fab :D

Why not leave them as Satellites? I don´t like the idea of a Germany 100% focused on Europe. :(
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transylvanian_Saxons

At lesast in Siebenbürgen around Hermannstadt Germans were clearly in the majority in the 1860ties. This only started to change when they lost their local autonomy in the Ausgleich.

It should be possible to form a mostly ethnic German state in Siebenbürgen before 1900, after which the Hungarians and Romanians slowly take the leadership.

If such a state would be economically viable, or if it would be possible for Germany to control and protect it is another question.
 
Why not leave them as Satellites? I don´t like the idea of a Germany 100% focused on Europe. :(

Well, the background idea of my TL is make the Greater German Empire viable and avoid mistakes did by the actual one IOTL, in order to make this possible to last to our days (as a constituional monarchy similar to UK or NL).

In my opinion (it's just my opinion, we could debate this for days) the German colonial project was a total flop, just for make Willy II happy like 'ooh, we have a colonial empire like the Brits or the French!!!'. But, excepting very few exceptions, was a black hole of money that only worked for making UK angry at Germany.

This does not mean that Germany would no develop a great Navy and establish commercial routes around the world etc etc but actual colonization at this so late stage was pretty stupid.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transylvanian_Saxons

At lesast in Siebenbürgen around Hermannstadt Germans were clearly in the majority in the 1860ties. This only started to change when they lost their local autonomy in the Ausgleich.

It should be possible to form a mostly ethnic German state in Siebenbürgen before 1900, after which the Hungarians and Romanians slowly take the leadership.

If such a state would be economically viable, or if it would be possible for Germany to control and protect it is another question.

Well, I think they could be viable, but their political and military status are unclear for me :(
 
Well using the map from your Timeline as a guideline

attachment.php


To actually get to these states would require land access through Croatia (best option), through Hungary (maybe) or going through the various northern states (too long and if one link falls then boom).

Russia is going to oppose Germany becoming so influential in the balkans. It may be bought off with a few major concessions like border adjustments to give some more land to Serbia (from the two southern free states), A romanian state including transylvania. Maybe also Ruthenia because of it's Ukrainian people and galicia to stop a independent polish state.

However the better option might just be to just establish a slovak state, unite the romanian people with moldova (and later wallachia) and have lots of Autonomy for the German areas. Russia gets Pan slavic state in romania (which it can use to fight the ottomans for wallachia) and Germany gets a minority that will support it and will retain it's culture.

These new states on condition of their independence would join the Zollverein and so be in the german economic sphere. Of Course hungary is going to probaly aligned against Germany in the future if carved up like this.
 
To actually get to these states would require land access through Croatia (best option), through Hungary (maybe) or going through the various northern states (too long and if one link falls then boom).

Well, if there would be an actual conflict between the breakaway entities against Buda and even between the different entities themselves, these borders could be accomodated.

Swabian Banat has many German communities to its western side (Mohacs, Fünfkirchen etc.) that they could get if the locals stand by them. This may allow connection with Croatia (which is an ally), which could also incorporate some Croat areas in Hungarian Slavonia. Swabian Banat and Saxon Transylvania could also be connected through absorbing a sparsely populated area between them if they are keen on the local Romanians.

Russia is going to oppose Germany becoming so influential in the balkans. It may be bought off with a few major concessions like border adjustments to give some more land to Serbia (from the two southern free states), A romanian state including transylvania. Maybe also Ruthenia because of it's Ukrainian people and galicia to stop a independent polish state.

My idea was:

- Creation of a Carpathian Federation between Kosice, South Galicia and Ruthenia, which would be a Russian puppet.
- Give the East Banat to Wallachia.
- Give Vojvodina to Serbia.
- Creation of a semi-independent entity called Transylvania-Szeklerland which would be co-ruled by Hungary and Moldavia, using a similar formula to ITTL Bohemia-Moravia (ruled by the King of Hungary but into a Romanian Confederation, sort of).

However the better option might just be to just establish a slovak state

I think the idea of an Slovak state was not very popular then (apart of Slovaks, of course). Better give the west to Bohemia-Moravia (oh, an anticipated Czechoslovakia, partly :D) and the east (Kosice) merged with South Galicia and Ruthenia for Russians delight.

unite the romanian people with moldova (and later wallachia) and have lots of Autonomy for the German areas.

The problem here is that Moldavia-Wallachia are still (de jure) Turkish, so really no German or Magyar (Szekely) area would want that. Once the Austrian Empire (first) and the Kingdom of Hungary (second) had divided, I think the German areas will try to do their own rather to be subdued to states they would consider semi-barbarian like still-Turkish Moldavia or Wallachia.

Russia gets Pan slavic state in romania (which it can use to fight the ottomans for wallachia) and Germany gets a minority that will support it and will retain it's culture.

Romania is not Slavic, even if it was supported by Russia. IOTL Transylvanian Germans were not happy with transfer to Romania (they considered it semi-barbarian) and thus they proposed alternate entities like the Republic of Banat.

These new states on condition of their independence would join the Zollverein and so be in the german economic sphere. Of Course hungary is going to probaly aligned against Germany in the future if carved up like this.

It is a little complicated to properly apply Zollverein to exclaves (with flights not invented yet), unless they would have applied to Croatia too (unlikely).

Well, if Hungary is badly carved this way, it would stay butthurt against all their neighbours, but their economy can't support such isolation. I think they would resign themselves as a Poland 2.0.
 
My idea was:

- Creation of a Carpathian Federation between Kosice, South Galicia and Ruthenia, which would be a Russian puppet.
- Give the East Banat to Wallachia.
- Give Vojvodina to Serbia.
- Creation of a semi-independent entity called Transylvania-Szeklerland which would be co-ruled by Hungary and Moldavia, using a similar formula to ITTL Bohemia-Moravia (ruled by the King of Hungary but into a Romanian Confederation, sort of).

I prefer:
-Russia annex South Galicia.
-Very big Banat Free State connected with the big Saxon Duchy.
-2 Indipendent Saxon Duchy.
-Indipendent but small Slovak Duchy with german minority protected or maybe very influent, it gain Ruthenia to connect the small Duchy of Aosen with Germany.
-Hungary re-annex everything else.

Gray: German Countries
Light Blue: Slovakia
Green: Russia

QzFaAUe.png
 
I prefer:
-Russia annex South Galicia.
-Very big Banat Free State connected with the big Saxon Duchy.
-2 Indipendent Saxon Duchy.
-Indipendent but small Slovak Duchy with german minority protected or maybe very influent, it gain Ruthenia to connect the small Duchy of Aosen with Germany.
-Hungary re-annex everything else.

I like your idea, but I'm afraid Russia not :D

In this TL it's a key point to keep Russia satisfied in the Eastern/Balkan area, otherwise the feared Franco-Russian sandwich will threat to crush Germany in a WWI fashion.

The creation of such big German states in Banat-Transylvania would certainly concern Russia too much, unless you give something more to Russia and its allies that just South Galicia, in order to keep the powers in balance. So I think that Vojvodina and East Banat would be awarded to both Serbia and Wallachia; moreover, these territories had few Germans and would only cause ethnic troubles to these German states.

However, the idea of a neutral Slovakia making a bridge from Austrian Bohemia to Nosen seems interesting :)
 
Well, if there would be an actual conflict between the breakaway entities against Buda and even between the different entities themselves, these borders could be accomodated.

Swabian Banat has many German communities to its western side (Mohacs, Fünfkirchen etc.) that they could get if the locals stand by them. This may allow connection with Croatia (which is an ally), which could also incorporate some Croat areas in Hungarian Slavonia. Swabian Banat and Saxon Transylvania could also be connected through absorbing a sparsely populated area between them if they are keen on the local Romanians.

My idea was:

- Creation of a Carpathian Federation between Kosice, South Galicia and Ruthenia, which would be a Russian puppet.
- Give the East Banat to Wallachia.
- Give Vojvodina to Serbia.
- Creation of a semi-independent entity called Transylvania-Szeklerland which would be co-ruled by Hungary and Moldavia, using a similar formula to ITTL Bohemia-Moravia (ruled by the King of Hungary but into a Romanian Confederation, sort of).

I think the idea of an Slovak state was not very popular then (apart of Slovaks, of course). Better give the west to Bohemia-Moravia (oh, an anticipated Czechoslovakia, partly :D) and the east (Kosice) merged with South Galicia and Ruthenia for Russians delight.

A carpathian federation is going to be made up of a large amount of poles and Ukrainians which are already subjected under the Russians already. Russia as seen in OTL prefers to rule through direct control over puppets. The most likely course seems to be direct annexations.

Also a slovak state could be easily dominated politically and economically and the germans don't want to become A-H 2.0 be adding more minorities. Also in the age of nationalism having another divided state would mean more restive populations which could rebel. A puppet state with some autonomy might be better.


The problem here is that Moldavia-Wallachia are still (de jure) Turkish, so really no German or Magyar (Szekely) area would want that. Once the Austrian Empire (first) and the Kingdom of Hungary (second) had divided, I think the German areas will try to do their own rather to be subdued to states they would consider semi-barbarian like still-Turkish Moldavia or Wallachia.

Romania is not Slavic, even if it was supported by Russia. IOTL Transylvanian Germans were not happy with transfer to Romania (they considered it semi-barbarian) and thus they proposed alternate entities like the Republic of Banat.

Ah I forgot that Moldova was still under turkish control. Also yeah of course Romania isn't slavic.

However the Romanians are the biggest minority and would push for a unified romanian state. And Hungarians are going to want to go back to hungary which means these states are extremely unstable. A very loose confederation like the OTL German confederation before unification might be better. Each is still independent but coordinate together and have free passage. Then using their influence in the more german ones to keep the confederation from becoming a fully unified state. It would appease some nationalists and allow Germany to have influence in all of romania instead of several small enclaves.

Of course German can just use force to prop up the enclaves and screw Romania but that is going to take a lot of effort and piss off another area.

It is a little complicated to properly apply Zollverein to exclaves (with flights not invented yet), unless they would have applied to Croatia too (unlikely).

Well, if Hungary is badly carved this way, it would stay butthurt against all their neighbours, but their economy can't support such isolation. I think they would resign themselves as a Poland 2.0.

Actually I did mean if Croatia joined to be connected. It would serve as a big market for german goods without tariffs. One of the biggest reasons for india as a british colony was a market for British goods. And it would expand german soft power in the balkans. Why is Croatia joining unlikely?

However it your tl and so your decision.

Edit

This map of austria hungary could help with borders.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...nic.svg/2000px-Austria_Hungary_ethnic.svg.png

-Allowing Croatia to expand into the same colour areas in banat
-Russia annexes all polish and ukraine areas
-A Romanian state in the Romania areas
-hungary getting most of the green territory with either a land bridge to the eastern areas or a german-hungarian Eastern transylvania.
 
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A carpathian federation is going to be made up of a large amount of poles and Ukrainians which are already subjected under the Russians already. Russia as seen in OTL prefers to rule through direct control over puppets. The most likely course seems to be direct annexations.

You are right here. Well, I will think about it better.

Also a slovak state could be easily dominated politically and economically and the germans don't want to become A-H 2.0 be adding more minorities. Also in the age of nationalism having another divided state would mean more restive populations which could rebel. A puppet state with some autonomy might be better.

Yes, but I have the concern that a weak independent Slovakia (remember that Pressburg/Bratislava was annexed ITTL by Austria) might become an object of fight between Germany and Russia.

Ah I forgot that Moldova was still under turkish control. Also yeah of course Romania isn't slavic.

However the Romanians are the biggest minority and would push for a unified romanian state. And Hungarians are going to want to go back to hungary which means these states are extremely unstable. A very loose confederation like the OTL German confederation before unification might be better. Each is still independent but coordinate together and have free passage. Then using their influence in the more german ones to keep the confederation from becoming a fully unified state. It would appease some nationalists and allow Germany to have influence in all of romania instead of several small enclaves.

By 1867 Romanians were the biggest minority, but just slightly. It's enough that, if there is a conflict, a significant bunch of Romanians and Magyars would be expelled from the German-controlled entities. After this, you might have entities with 60% Germans easily.

Maybe these German entities could be a sort of 'free associated states' to Germany, included in the Zollverein, but not in the political and military structure?

Of course German can just use force to prop up the enclaves and screw Romania but that is going to take a lot of effort and piss off another area.

Yes, not a good idea, at least at this stage.

Actually I did mean if Croatia joined to be connected. It would serve as a big market for german goods without tariffs. One of the biggest reasons for india as a british colony was a market for British goods. And it would expand german soft power in the balkans. Why is Croatia joining unlikely?

Well, it's not Croatia joining unlikely, it's the concern it might cause to others if Croatia joins the Zollverein, as it could be seen as a first step to further integration.

However it your tl and so your decision.

Yes, but I appreciate the comments and observations provided by users here and I like to incorporate some of the ideas of you all :)

Edit

This map of austria hungary could help with borders.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...nic.svg/2000px-Austria_Hungary_ethnic.svg.png

-Allowing Croatia to expand into the same colour areas in banat
-Russia annexes all polish and ukraine areas
-A Romanian state in the Romania areas
-hungary getting most of the green territory with either a land bridge to the eastern areas or a german-hungarian Eastern transylvania.

Thanks ;)

However, the colour of Croatians and Serbs is the same in the map. Vojvodina was Serbian, not Croatian, so expanding Croatia into there is not a good idea I'm afraid.
 
Maybe a different possibility is just converting the Kingdom of Hungary into a new Hungarian Empire, in the same fashion of the German Empire, with proper Hungary acting as the Hungarian Prussia and all the breakaway entities as confederated members (it could also allow some of them to eventually join the Zollverein).
 
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