Puff The Magic Dragon in SWAT/Angola

MacCaulay

Banned
It's kind of a dead end topic, but it's something that popped into my head: the South African Air Force always seemed to have a fairly low quantity of all it's aircraft. But one thing it did have, between C-47s and (were they Transalls or C-130s?) was transport.

So why, when they were fighting a guerilla war when tactical air support was a premium, didn't they ever modify some of their Dakotas into gunships? It didn't seem to be something that expensive. The USAF was doing it in Vietnam with...what? A quad-.50 and some sort of aircraft cannon? Obviously Denel or someone could do that. They were inventive folks.

Was it an air superiority thing?
 
Not sure about in Namibia, but Angola had fairly closely contested air battles. I think even in major South African offensives like Cuito Carnavale the Cubans/Angolans actually had command of the air a lot of the time. Probably a product of numbers and the ability of the opposition to ship in fairly advanced planes while the South Africans were under the embargo. The Rhodesians had good results from a fairly ad hoc airforce, but they weren't facing much AA.

The other issue is why the South African military would need something like the AC-130. Their artillery was highly effective, being long ranged and hard hitting.

Again, I don't know much about the fighting in Namibia, but I think the lack of fixed enemy positions (SWAPO bases tended to get rolled up quick) would have made something like those gunships less useful.
 
Probably because they needed a majority of them for transport purposes and the loss could have major affects. Also, has been mentioned, the attritional rate of such units would be high, especially if the airspace was contested (as it was). It could be very risked with limited returns.
 
It's kind of a dead end topic, but it's something that popped into my head: the South African Air Force always seemed to have a fairly low quantity of all it's aircraft. But one thing it did have, between C-47s and (were they Transalls or C-130s?) was transport.

So why, when they were fighting a guerilla war when tactical air support was a premium, didn't they ever modify some of their Dakotas into gunships? It didn't seem to be something that expensive. The USAF was doing it in Vietnam with...what? A quad-.50 and some sort of aircraft cannon? Obviously Denel or someone could do that. They were inventive folks.

Was it an air superiority thing?

They did. They had AC 47s until fairly recently.
 
When was this? I know the SAAF had Turbo Daks, which had upgraded engines and radars for maritime search and destroy like we used P-3s, but I haven't read anywhere that they had gunships.

I found it on wikipedia which I know is pretty crappy but its referenced on several pages so I feel that gives it some credibility.
 

MacCaulay

Banned
I found it on wikipedia which I know is pretty crappy but its referenced on several pages so I feel that gives it some credibility.

I'll have to keep looking. The big reason I think they didn't is that they really liked to take pictures and document their gear. The Turbo Daks, the Cheetahs, every version of the Centurion they had, even the R-series assault rifles, it was all really well photographed. And I've never seen a photo of an SAAF Dakota with guns on it. I could be wrong, but my gut says I'm not.

I'm not meaning to be a jerk or anything here, man. Don't take it that way.
 
I'll have to keep looking. The big reason I think they didn't is that they really liked to take pictures and document their gear. The Turbo Daks, the Cheetahs, every version of the Centurion they had, even the R-series assault rifles, it was all really well photographed. And I've never seen a photo of an SAAF Dakota with guns on it. I could be wrong, but my gut says I'm not.

I'm not meaning to be a jerk or anything here, man. Don't take it that way.


Why would I take it badly. I admitted that I simply found it on wikipedia. I do not do anywhere near the amount of research you do so I would pretty much always take your knowledge on subjects like this above my own.
 

MacCaulay

Banned

That one at least seems to have the main poster agreeing with me. He's pretty hung up on ammunition expenditature making it too rich for South Africa or Rhodesia's blood. That's a bit odd, I never thought of that. .50-cal bullets wouldn't seem that expensive to me, especially when they're so common.

That picture...it's a little odd. I can't quite figure out why the guy's face would be blocked out. I've got tons of photos of SAAF and SADF gear, and the only ones I've got with blurred faces are a few taken of 32 Battalion in the 80s.
 
That one at least seems to have the main poster agreeing with me. He's pretty hung up on ammunition expenditature making it too rich for South Africa or Rhodesia's blood. That's a bit odd, I never thought of that. .50-cal bullets wouldn't seem that expensive to me, especially when they're so common.

That picture...it's a little odd. I can't quite figure out why the guy's face would be blocked out. I've got tons of photos of SAAF and SADF gear, and the only ones I've got with blurred faces are a few taken of 32 Battalion in the 80s.

Well fifty cal is pretty expensive. I think its like thirty dollars a round.
 

MacCaulay

Banned
Well fifty cal is pretty expensive. I think its like thirty dollars a round.

Maybe for a specialized sniper round or something, right? I can't see a machine gun shooting 120 dollars a second, you know? You'd think they'd find a way to make it cheaper since it's such a common machine gun round.
 
Maybe for a specialized sniper round or something, right? I can't see a machine gun shooting 120 dollars a second, you know? You'd think they'd find a way to make it cheaper since it's such a common machine gun round.

Nope I am pretty sure its true for both. Surely there must be some way of finding out how much military issue ammo costs per round.
 

Al-Buraq

Banned
Well fifty cal is pretty expensive. I think its like thirty dollars a round.


DragonDak s/n 6854 with 20mmm cannon

7c2d916a.jpg
 

HJ Tulp

Donor
That one at least seems to have the main poster agreeing with me. He's pretty hung up on ammunition expenditature making it too rich for South Africa or Rhodesia's blood. That's a bit odd, I never thought of that. .50-cal bullets wouldn't seem that expensive to me, especially when they're so common.

That picture...it's a little odd. I can't quite figure out why the guy's face would be blocked out. I've got tons of photos of SAAF and SADF gear, and the only ones I've got with blurred faces are a few taken of 32 Battalion in the 80s.

According to what I've read the Dragon Dak would have a 20mm in the doorway. Sounds like a bit of a waste of fuel to have it run strictly CAS with only that as armament. Maybe it was used to lend some help incase the LZ got hot?
 
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