Ptolemies overthrown by native Egyptians and aftermath

[Cuāuhtemōc]

In the reign of Ptolemy IV and V as Pharaoh of Egypt, there was a major uprising by the native Egyptian population, led by Hugronaphor and Ankhmakis. They managed to win back 80 percent of the country from the Macedonian Greeks but they ended up losing. I don't know the circumstances of their defeat but let's say that they are successful. They overthrow the Ptolemies and seize control of Alexandria.

What would late Egyptian culture be like under native Pharaohs (albeit those of Nubian background)?

 

[Oracle of Sobek 𓆋]

*Horwennefer and *Ankhwennefer - Egyptian names FTW!

Pedantry aside, if either H. or A. manages to establish a stable dynasty (and that's a big "if"), they've still got a lot of Greeks on their territory, and they probably won't be able to corral most of them into Naukratis like the 26th Dynasty kings did. The Greeks in Egypt will be troublesome, and may appeal to the Seleucids for assistance (they may invite the Seleucids to take over the country). The new native dynasty (either Dynasty 33 or 34, depending on whether or not you count the Argeads - and in Egyptian historiography not everyone does) may look to Kush and/or Rome for support. They may also try to integrate the more receptive Greeks into Egyptian culture, and Egyptian culture will likely acquire some Greek overtones in the process (this may happen regardless - some grafitti dating from Horwennefer's reign is Egyptian written in Greek letters, basically foreshadowing Coptic).

 

[Basileus Giorgios]

I would be surprised if the revolt ended with anything other than a Roman restoration of the Ptolemies for political reasons. The Republic liked to keep her Ptolemaic poodles securely in place.

On the topic, here's a cool thing I found today: a second century BC native Egyptian curse-prophecy called the Oracle of the Potterwhich circulated against both the Macedonians and Romans up until the third century AD.

"And then the Guardian Spirit will desert the city which they [the Macedonians] founded [ie Alexandria] and go to god-bearing Memphis and (Alexandria) will be deserted. ... That will be the end of our evils when Egypt shall see the foreigners fall like leaves from the branch. The city by the sea will be a drying-place for the fishermens' catch because the Guardian Spirit has gone to Memphis, so that passers-by will say, 'This was the all-nurturing city in which all the races of mankind lived'. "

There was a definite feeling of Egyptian nationalism up until the third century AD then: thereafter it was largely absorbed, first by the granting of Roman citizenship and civic self-governance after 200AD, and after the fourth century by Christianity. Certainly, in all of my readings of sixth century Egypt I never came across anything remotely like the sort of curse-prophecy text described above.

 

[Errnge]

what if egypt was partitioned with the Greeks maintaining control of the delta and the coastline and the natives controlling the rest of the river and the red sea?

 

[zhivago6]

At this point in time the Romans were already warning the other Greek states to stay out of the affairs of the Egyptians because they needed the food that Egypt was providing. However, I do not think they would be able to field the size of military presence in Egypt needed to put the Ptolemys back in power if they had been defeated. I do agree that the Seleucids would be invited in by the Greek colonists though, and also as they always coveted controlling Egypt.

 

[el t]

Ptolemies

*Horwennefer and *Ankhwennefer - Egyptian names FTW!

Pedantry aside, if either H. or A. manages to establish a stable dynasty (and that's a big "if"), they've still got a lot of Greeks on their territory, and they probably won't be able to corral most of them into Naukratis like the 26th Dynasty kings did. The Greeks in Egypt will be troublesome, and may appeal to the Seleucids for assistance (they may invite the Seleucids to take over the country). The new native dynasty (either Dynasty 33 or 34, depending on whether or not you count the Argeads - and in Egyptian historiography not everyone does) may look to Kush and/or Rome for support. They may also try to integrate the more receptive Greeks into Egyptian culture, and Egyptian culture will likely acquire some Greek overtones in the process (this may happen regardless - some grafitti dating from Horwennefer's reign is Egyptian written in Greek letters, basically foreshadowing Coptic).

I agree. A partition of the country was likely, with the Egyptians controlling the south and the Greeks the north. How both parts would have reacted to the Persian and Islamic invasions of the seventh century is both bewildering and fascinating to speculate.

 

[MerryPrankster]

Would the Romans tolerate the new dynasty if the grain keeps flowing?

 

[Oracle of Sobek 𓆋]

I agree. A partition of the country was likely, with the Egyptians controlling the south and the Greeks the north. How both parts would have reacted to the Persian and Islamic invasions of the seventh century is both bewildering and fascinating to speculate.

I do not consider a partition at all likely. Egypt does not partition well, though a lot of people seem to think it does.

Would the Romans tolerate the new dynasty if the grain keeps flowing?

At this point, they'd have no choice BUT to tolerate it. If the Romans are concerned about the Seleucids moving in after the Ptolemies have been routed, they may actually decide to support the native dynasty.

 

[SlyDessertFox]

I'm not sure the Romans could do anything much about this, nor would they really be interested in doing anything as long as Antiochos III agrees to keep the grain flowing-which I don't see why he wouldn't. Remember the rebellion began right around the time of the ending of Rome's war with Phillip V of Makedon. It didn't appear at this time that Rome had any interest with fighting Antiochos III. Both sides seemed to have wanted to reach some kind of agreement before their war eventually broke out. Rome hadn't shown much interest in Asia, really, until Antiochos' failed invasion of Greece.

So I can see Antiochos reaching some kind of understanding with Rome-he'll give up his ancestral claims to Thrace and anything on the European side of the Bosporous, and will keep the grain flowing in return for Rome recognizing Seleucid control over Egypt. Keep in mind also, even if Rome and the Seleucids do go to war, there's no guarantee Rome can win yet. It certainly wasn't inevitable they won their war OTL, and this time around Antiochos would have more forces to be able to call on, having access to what remained of the Ptolemaic armies and settler colonies.