PT-41 and MacArthur lost at sea

Thomas Hart is a full Fleet Admiral of the U.S. Navy he out ranks everyone else in the P.I. he was a family friend and frequent shipmates of Mac Arthur' older brother Arthur, he was the one man who could and it would only take a seconds action to call out Mac. My scenario is that Hart arrives at MacArthur's HQ. accompanied by Naval aide and USMC orderly, Sgt. or above rank. Sutherland refuses access Hart orders him to stand aside or be arrested for insurbordation , Orderly pushes by stunned Sutherland let's Hart and Aid Into Marc Arthur's quarters. There he finds General catonic/unconscious , orders the aide to fetch his Fleet surgeon. He states that he is assuming command of USFFE, disagree at your peril..orders WP ORANGE To be initiated, takes the job and does it. Doctor arrives, states General is incapicated, orders him hospitalized and prepared for transport to DEI then to U.S.. thoughts?
 
That works, attacking Formosa right away may slow things down for the Japanese. The question is will Wainwright, who I assume takes over, pull back from a defense heavily oriented to the beaches to one with minimal beach defense but going with the plan for Bataan. Also major stocks moved to Bataan right away. The PI will still fall, but much later and requiring much more effort on the part of the Japanese and more materiel losses.

The above scenario works fine, and I think the odds are Sutherland will be ordered out of the PI along with paperwork to ensure he was sent to the coastal defenses of Wyoming or supervising banana production in Alaska. Other members of the staff will probably stay in the PI and if they work hard possibly contribute, some of them like Willoughby, will be revealed as the incompetents they were and if they survive and get out of the PI before it falls, will have jobs like snowplow control officer for Florida.
 
Thomas Hart is a full Fleet Admiral of the U.S. Navy he out ranks everyone else in the P.I. he was a family friend and frequent shipmates of Mac Arthur' older brother Arthur, he was the one man who could and it would only take a seconds action to call out Mac. My scenario is that Hart arrives at MacArthur's HQ. accompanied by Naval aide and USMC orderly, Sgt. or above rank. Sutherland refuses access Hart orders him to stand aside or be arrested for insurbordation , Orderly pushes by stunned Sutherland let's Hart and Aid Into Marc Arthur's quarters. There he finds General catonic/unconscious , orders the aide to fetch his Fleet surgeon. He states that he is assuming command of USFFE, disagree at your peril..orders WP ORANGE To be initiated, takes the job and does it. Doctor arrives, states General is incapicated, orders him hospitalized and prepared for transport to DEI then to U.S.. thoughts?

This scenario is ASB. As a naval officer, full admiral or not (*), Hart has ZERO legal authority to assume command of USAFFE (United States Army Forces in the Far East) under ANY circumstances save by direction of the President (**). MacArthur was a wholly independent army commander who direct reported to the War Department (just as Hart answered to the Navy Department). Sutherland is well aware of this, and he was never an easy man to intimidate. Three guys in navy whites marching into an Army headquarters to announce they are taking over will accomplish nothing but get their asses escorted out of the office by the Army MPs guarding the place with Thompsons. If Mac is down, his ranking subordinate (Jonathan Wainwright) will succeed him. Hart's actions will be disowned by the Navy in Washington, as well they should be. After the war, books and papers will be written minutely dissecting this episode, condemning it as the very nadir of Army-Navy relations.

(*) Hart was a temporary Admiral at the time, and eventually retired at that rank. I assume that's what you meant. He was never a Fleet Admiral, a grade not introduced until 1944.

(**) President Roosevelt had issued orders which subordinated Hart's Marine contingent to MacArthur, and directed the Navy's shore-based establishment to co-operate with the Army in the defense of the Philippines. So, if anything it is Hart who would be out of line in this scenario.
 
That works, attacking Formosa right away may slow things down for the Japanese.

The problem is that the same fog that is keeping the Japanese bombers grounded (and everyone anxiously awaiting the US Bombers that never came) is going to make even finding the island a problem, not to mention finding and bombing the airfields. And any recon missions flown that morning are going to find nothing.

I've brought this up before - some pilots swore they saw recon photos of Formosa _before_ December 7th. If so who took them and when? Dugout Doug kept refusing to allow recon flights until it was far too late...
 
Interesting stuff. So let's say Mac is lost at sea, but remains MIA (with concerns of his capture very much on everyone's mind). Nimitz gets overall command of the Pacific theater.
- Wainwright is defacto US Army commander, but is lost (KIA OR POW) when the PI fall.
- The Navy calls the shots in the Pacific (with heavy Roosevelt support).
- Everything up to the US win at Midway happens as IOTL.
- Island hopping is scrapped as a strategy, but some islands (Tarawa, Marshalls) are attacked to develop amphibious techniques (with hard lessons learned as IOTL).
- No invasion of PI, but as a result a major US/IJN sea battle occurs (Halsey), with US Naval air power proving dominant, and most IJN heavies are sunk.
- US Navy blockades Japan and PI, while massive invasion of Korea/China is executed in late 1944 (think operation Downfall). Korea liberated quickly, and with Chang's help, the China campaign goes smoothly as well. Japanese forces in China are cut off from supply and are destroyed.
- B29s raid Japan around the clock from bases in Korea and China until most of Japan is in ruin. However a handful of cities are mysteriously not touched.
- Roosevelt dies.
- Germany surrenders. Japan given warning to surrender or else.
- As soon as Tall Boy is ready, it is dropped on one of the "lucky" cities. A second bomb is not needed as Japan complies. However Fat Man is ready and Truman is told it must be tested.
- One evening Soviet troops are stunned as the sun appears to rise near the Chinese border with Manchuria. Point made.

Ric350
 
The island hopping campaign will go on. Some campaigns such as Pelilieu which were to support the big PI push won't happen. It was absolutely necessary for the US to seize many of these islands to provide logistical bases for the Navy, airfields for the USAAF, and take out certain key bases to prevent Japanese threats to rear areas. More islands will wither on the vine, and the New Guinea campaigns will be more limited once any threat to Australia surrounding areas is eliminated. I don't see no action in the PI, but more likely much more limited.

You may see a Formosa invasion. You won't see an invasion of the Chinese mainland (the Amoy concept) as the logistics will suck and it will be a huge sink for troops and materiel for little gain (except for Chiang). Invading Korea is simply nuts. Aside from the fact it gains you nothing, a lot of the terrain will favor the Japanese who can reinforce from the Kwantung Army easily. Also those restricted waters will be a mess for the Navy with Kamikaze planes and boats from Japan will be much, much closer than Okinawa which was bad enough.
 
Just out of curiosity is it being implied that Mrs. MacArthur, Young Arthur and his Chinese nanny perished as well aboard PT-41?
 

Driftless

Donor
I would be ok with just Dougie getting bumped off. No need to cap Mom, Son, and Nanny.
Maybe a brief strafing run? Save Bulkeley too.

At the risk of being morbid, having Mac be the primary/sole casualty resolves any chain of command questions quickly. There's no uncertainty of a MIA Mac then; though that outcome might feed a later generation of conspiracy theorists....

Of course, THIS MacArthur isn't the icon that he became in our time. In this circumstance, he's probably remembered as the "fall guy" for the Philippines and the Bonus Army. Though, Mrs. Mac, or Sutherland could play the Libby Custer role and elevate Mac to Mount Rushmore....
 
The environment in the 1940s is not the same as the 1870s. Its hard to elevate to hero levels somebody whose actions after warned about PH resulted in the USAAF in the PI being trashed on the ground, whose defense plan was a disaster, and the lack of preparation made Bataan much more of a disaster than it had to be. His death leaving the PI means no opportunity for him to be a rallying point, no New Guinea campaign, no return to the PI. His death/incapacity right after PH as a poster suggested clears him of blame and potential to be a hero.

I wonder how much of Mac's bad decisions were really known in Washington when he left the PI - the lack of reaction of air forces, the failure to stock Bataan when it could have been done, etc. I'm certain his staff did everything they could to prevent this information getting back to higher ups, and I suspect by the time this was known (if it was during the war) Doug had already been placed on a pedestal and knocking him off was bad for morale. The USA needed heroes in 1942 after having the snot kicked out of them in the Pacific in the first 6 months of the war. IMHO a dead MacArthur as a martyr would do just as well...
 

Driftless

Donor
The environment in the 1940s is not the same as the 1870s. Its hard to elevate to hero levels somebody whose actions after warned about PH resulted in the USAAF in the PI being trashed on the ground, whose defense plan was a disaster, and the lack of preparation made Bataan much more of a disaster than it had to be. His death leaving the PI means no opportunity for him to be a rallying point, no New Guinea campaign, no return to the PI. His death/incapacity right after PH as a poster suggested clears him of blame and potential to be a hero.

I wonder how much of Mac's bad decisions were really known in Washington when he left the PI - the lack of reaction of air forces, the failure to stock Bataan when it could have been done, etc. I'm certain his staff did everything they could to prevent this information getting back to higher ups, and I suspect by the time this was known (if it was during the war) Doug had already been placed on a pedestal and knocking him off was bad for morale. The USA needed heroes in 1942 after having the snot kicked out of them in the Pacific in the first 6 months of the war. IMHO a dead MacArthur as a martyr would do just as well...

Good points. I wonder though, if Mac is KIA, more of the gallant hero hagiography in the popular mind goes to Wainwright(the leader who stayed), the Wake Island Marines, and later the Doolittle Raiders.

*edit* Does "They were Expendable" get made ITTL?
 
Last edited:
IMHO if Mac is killed on the way out, I expect there will be more of the "Dugout Doug" trope, possibly even "Bugout Doug". Yes we all know he was ordered out by FDR, but still. If Bulkley does not get killed, and the difference is Mac dies on the voyage...swept overboard, killed in a strafing attack, etc I would assume the book and film get made much as OTL. I expect, especially if killed in a strafing attack, that Mac gets a place in the pantheon, but much lower than OTL.

BTW if the PT boat goes missing with no evidence ever found can you just image how the foil hat conspiracy folks will be still going on about how FDR or somebody made him disappear. Did he end up on some deserted islet and, like Amelia, waste away waiting for rescue? The possibilities are endless.
 

Driftless

Donor
BTW if the PT boat goes missing with no evidence ever found can you just image how the foil hat conspiracy folks will be still going on about how FDR or somebody made him disappear. Did he end up on some deserted islet and, like Amelia, waste away waiting for rescue? The possibilities are endless.

Yup, Bob Ballard will search the Sulu Sea for evidence of the wreck during the 90's - not that finding the wreck would change anything.
 
IMHO if Mac is killed on the way out, I expect there will be more of the "Dugout Doug" trope, possibly even "Bugout Doug". Yes we all know he was ordered out by FDR, but still. If Bulkley does not get killed, and the difference is Mac dies on the voyage...swept overboard, killed in a strafing attack, etc I would assume the book and film get made much as OTL. I expect, especially if killed in a strafing attack, that Mac gets a place in the pantheon, but much lower than OTL.

BTW if the PT boat goes missing with no evidence ever found can you just image how the foil hat conspiracy folks will be still going on about how FDR or somebody made him disappear. Did he end up on some deserted islet and, like Amelia, waste away waiting for rescue? The possibilities are endless.

If Mac's death is reported by a surviving Buckley then yes there will still be a book and movie. Probably the film will feature a scene where MacArthur utters his last words to Robert Montgomery. Every other "fall of the Phillipines" movie will feature a scene where our heroes find out the General was killed and vow revenge.
 
This scenario popped into my head:

-The PT boats do not escape the attention of a Japanese Cruiser during the breakout and are fired upon.
-PT-41 is hit by Japanese fire. MacArthur is critically wounded. PT-41 is damaged.
-MacArthur's condition worsens. Due to lack of enough medical supplies and possibly plasma MacArthur dies of his wounds.
-PT-41 is scuttled. Bulkeley decides to push on with the remaining boat and deliver Mrs. MacArthur to Mindanao. The General's body is wrapped in canvas and taken as well.
-Buckley and party arrive in Mindanao. It is decided to bury MacArthur at sea rather than risk his body being found by the Japanese.
- In Australia General Brett has to break the news to Washington and the Australian government.
-The MacArthur family is escorted to Australia by Sutherland (of course). Eventually Jean MacArthur and young Arthur will return to the United States and Mrs. MacArthur will be presented with her late husband's Medal of Honor awarded posthumously.
-Brett assumes temporary command of all American forces in Australia. Meanwhile Washington scrambles to figure out who will take overall command in the southwest pacific.
-The "Bataan gang" will make recommendations for going to help Wainwright. But Brett will focus on getting Australia ready for a possible invasion.
 
Top