Prussian US alliance a bond through the ages

[Syphon]

When Wilhelm I become king of Prussia in his own right in 1861 he faced a dispute with his parliament over the size of the army.

The parliament, dominated by the liberals, balked at Wilhelm's desire to increase the number of regiments.

However Wilhelm decided after much thought to use their own liberalism against them.
He went to the Prussian parliament with his desire to crush slavery saying that this was what the additional regiments were for.
He stated that a line must be drawn in the sand and as good Christians, Prussia must help the United States of America put down the revolt with the slave owning south.

The Prussian parliament was in a quandary they didn't want a larger army yet they didn't like the idea of slavery either.

In a close vote the Prussian parliament voted to approve the additional regiments but only until the slave states in the US had given up their pro slavery stance.
By September of 1861 the Prussian government formally offered the government of the United States of America direct military assistance.

It was an offer that was quickly accepted by President Lincoln and a new friedship was born.

 

[Syphon]

This was just an idea that jumped into my head while reading another thread.

What effect would a much closer US German alliance have on events from now on.

how long would the civil war last if Prussian Generals had prominent positions in the Union armies.

Ideas thoughts would be welcome.

 

[brokenman]

A Prussian alliance with US will mean that Prussia must or must have a substantial navy, to say at least. Also, such alliance will face animosity from England and France, so much that they'll want to recognize the CSA earlier. Nevertheless, nice idea.

 

[Free Lancer]

Hmm an interesting idea put fourth in a realistic way, it will need POD and some work to actually make it happen but yeah.

The Effect of a US German alliance will most likely tie into the unofficial US Russian Alliance, which given the circumstances could pull all three nations together considering that with Prussia Poland will be effectively hammered in on two sides.

The question of direct military assistance is a tricky one though I don’t think that Prussian generals will immediately be in prominent positions in the union’s armies at the start of the war considering what the public opinion is and any political opposition the chance will most likely only come in 1862 and most likely only in the eastern theater.

 

[brokenman]

Hmm an interesting idea put fourth in a realistic way, it will need POD and some work to actually make it happen but yeah.

The Effect of a US German alliance will most likely tie into the unofficial US Russian Alliance, which given the circumstances could pull all three nations together considering that with Prussia Poland will be effectively hammered in on two sides.

The question of direct military assistance is a tricky one though I don’t think that Prussian generals will immediately be in prominent positions in the union’s armies at the start of the war considering what the public opinion is and any political opposition the chance will most likely only come in 1862 and most likely only in the eastern theater.

I agree with this. Besides, Russia have offered the Americans support and were friendly to the Union OTL. The difference is, Ottoman support will be on the opposite, as well as AH. Italy, on the other hand...

 

[Detlef]

Well.....

The Prussian King Wilhelm I could point to the "Treaty of Amity and Commerce" between Prussia and the USA? Signed 1785? Ratified by Congress in 1786? Already negotiated during the American War of Independence?
Involving Frederick the Great, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin?
(Already including rules for treatment of civilians and civilian property during war. Plus of course no tariffs on certain trade goods between both nations.)

King Wilhelm I might also quote from a letter of Frederick the Great to Voltaire (1776)?
"If the landgrave of Hessia had been educated in following my principles, he wouldn´t have sold his subjects to the British crown like farm animals, to be transported to a butcher."
(My translation of the quote.)

Likewise Prussia already forbade its citizens to trade with slaves in 1715. Part of the reason - no doubt - because Prussia wasn´t that involved in it.

But taken together....
Wilhelm I could invoke Frederick the Great, opposing selling human beings like animals and the early law against slavery....

Difficult to see how any "party" (from conservatives to liberals) could oppose such a proposal.
To transport troops, Prussia and the USA would have to lease merchant ships (American, German, Dutch ships).
Depending on UK politics, British ships might also be available.
(The British Empire already abolished slavery after all.)

 

[BlondieBC]

A few Prussian regiments could make a world of difference for the Union Army. Probably their best use would be as a training command.

 

[Johnrankins]

A Prussian alliance with US will mean that Prussia must or must have a substantial navy, to say at least. Also, such alliance will face animosity from England and France, so much that they'll want to recognize the CSA earlier. Nevertheless, nice idea.

It will be difficult for England especially to directly oppose a Prussia or any other country that intervenes against the CSA to end slavery. The Abolitionist sentiment was STRONG in GB and opposing anything that would help stop slavery would be politically problematic.

 

[brokenman]

It will be difficult for England especially to directly oppose a Prussia or any other country that intervenes against the CSA to end slavery. The Abolitionist sentiment was STRONG in GB and opposing anything that would help stop slavery would be politically problematic.

GB is known OTL for its sentiments towards the Confederates, however.

 

[Johnrankins]

GB is known OTL for its sentiments towards the Confederates, however.

Which was greatly exagerated, the Brits did virtually nothing to help the CSA.

 

[Elfwine]

And would probably not do anything if for whatever reason Prussia wanted to help the Union - assuming Prussia would for discussion's sake.

I mean, who cares what Prussia does in this regard? The long term effects may make later writers wonder why no one paid attention at the time, but there's not much to respond to yet.

Now, whether Lincoln and the rest of the Federal government would accept foreign aid in dealing with an internal problem is an interesting question.

 

[Derek Jackson]

WI PRUSSIA's role was distracting the French from aiding the slaveholding traitors in the Americas

 

[Mauser]

There were in OTL many German generals who immigrated from the smaller state of the German confederation in the Union. There were even one army with German immigrant. (Sigel's Army?) I wonder if the Prussian could just send one their best commander to provide advise or command the said army.

 

[NHBL]

Interesting...

This seems like a very plausible POD, if someone has the idea. Ships should be available for purchase,lease, or American ships might be avaialble. Clearly, the American navy would need to escort the troop convoys. (The USN did have a few decent warships, and ones with enough firepower to smash any rebel raider going after the convoy.)

The terminology would have to be worked out carefully, lest it sound like the USA or Prussia is accepting the CSA as a nation. You make alliances against other nations, not against internal troubles.

Of course, down the road, when Prussia has its own internal troubles, will the USA intervene in favor of a militaristic suppression of protest and dissent?

This could easily involve the USA in European affairs from this time forwards.

You would need a major Southern victory on the batlefield, or a possibility of European aid in quantity to the South--the USA really wants to avoid foreign entanglements!

With some planning, this premise has potential

 

[eliphas8]

This seems like a very plausible POD, if someone has the idea. Ships should be available for purchase,lease, or American ships might be avaialble. Clearly, the American navy would need to escort the troop convoys. (The USN did have a few decent warships, and ones with enough firepower to smash any rebel raider going after the convoy.)

The terminology would have to be worked out carefully, lest it sound like the USA or Prussia is accepting the CSA as a nation. You make alliances against other nations, not against internal troubles.

Of course, down the road, when Prussia has its own internal troubles, will the USA intervene in favor of a militaristic suppression of protest and dissent?

This could easily involve the USA in European affairs from this time forwards.

You would need a major Southern victory on the batlefield, or a possibility of European aid in quantity to the South--the USA really wants to avoid foreign entanglements!

With some planning, this premise has potential

You know I wonder... could the butterfly's from this affect Frederick III's cancer? He seems like the perfect leader to cement a US German alliance given his liberal political views.

 

[Mac Gregor]

Y'all are way off. Lincoln would never accept the use of foreign troops. A few Prussian advisors possibly, but the Confederate's would have a field day with the Yankee's sending their "Hessians" after them. Furthermore, there is little need as the Union had no shortage of manpower and I seriously doubt that the Prussian liberals would take Wilhelm I up on this crazy scheme.

 

[eliphas8]

Y'all are way off. Lincoln would never accept the use of foreign troops. A few Prussian advisors possibly, but the Confederate's would have a field day with the Yankee's sending their "Hessians" after them. Furthermore, there is little need as the Union had no shortage of manpower and I seriously doubt that the Prussian liberals would take Wilhelm I up on this crazy scheme.

Well the troops would probably be training troops and officers in the latest military tactics and drilling techniques so they almost definitely would be acting as advisers. It also makes some sense, I doubt they would be opposed to aiding the liberals in a civil war against a bunch of slave owning reactionaries, especially if it stays at the level I described.

 

[Daylight Savings]

I think the only way the Union allows foreign aid is is the Confederacy gets foreign support first. There is already precedent for staying out of European affairs, set forth by Washington, followed by Jefferson and Madison during the Napoleonic Wars and expanded by Monroe. The offer would need to come free of any kind of declaration of alliance or permanent treaty.

 

[Mauser]

Could the American civil war wait until 1870? Perhaps this whole venture could act like some sort of 'Bad Ems' pretext for France to declare war on NGC?

 

[Daylight Savings]

Actually the more I think about it, would it be better for all involved if the Prussians offered to lend advisers and sell weapons and technology in order to fund the extra regiments?