Prussian nationalism?

[Orko]

What would it take for Prussia to conceive itself as a separate nation from Germany, and not seek to take part in a unified German nation (like Austria IOTL)? It doesn’t mean it has to be completely separate always, a scenario where Prussian nationalism vs. pan-germanism becomes a big debate in Prussian society is acceptable, even one where Prussia becomes for a short period annexed by alt-Germany, so long as in the long run it remains separate.

assuming a post-1815 PoD.

 

[Alamannicus]

A somehow even worse Thirty Years' War? Perhaps something that clearly and brutally defines sectarian lines between North and South Germany?

Edit: Noticed POD, ignore me.

 

[Salvador79]

What would it take for Prussia to conceive itself as a separate nation from Germany, and not seek to take part in a unified German nation (like Austria IOTL)? It doesn’t mean it has to be completely separate always, a scenario where Prussian nationalism vs. pan-germanism becomes a big debate in Prussian society is acceptable, even one where Prussia becomes for a short period annexed by alt-Germany, so long as in the long run it remains separate.

assuming a post-1815 PoD.

Post-1815, Prussia had become a behemoth ruling over the culturally, confessionally, socially, economically and even legal-traditionally allen Rhinelanders.

If Prussia were to develop a stronger sense of its own identity (it DID have some), it would have to stay a Protestant state with the particular East Elbian agrarian social structure.

But that's difficult of course. No French Rev and Napoleon, which would have kept Prussia smaller and more traditional, would also sinply butterfly mationalism wholesale.

 

[Aghasverov]

Perhaps a conception of Prussians as something "other than German" on the part of Germans in the other Kingdoms, Duchies, etc might assist in this?

@David Flin may be able to contribute here... apparently on the front lines in WWI there was quite a degree of hostility toward the Prussians, on the part of the other German troops in the Heer...

 

[DanMcCollum]

Is there a way to keep Prussia out of the Rhineland following the Napoleonic Wars? If you can manage this, you'll likely see Prussia keep its attention on the East, and if it expands out that way, and absords more of the Baltic and so forth, that might help matters a bit.

 

[Johannes Parisiensis]

And what about Germany being reunified by Austria and excluding Prussia, leading it to develop a separate identity?

 

[Iserlohn]

I agree with the notion that the best way to create a Prussian nation state with a post-1815 POD is to either fudge the timeframe a bit (by allowing a POD just before or during the Congress of Vienna, so around 1813 & 1814) or do something to get Prussia out of Westphalia and the Rhineland.

If Prussia doesn't have these two territories, then the influence of the junkers may very well lead to Prussia not being interested in being part of a united Germany, especially if you can also increase its territorial share of Poland at the same time. However with the Rhineland and Westphalia under Berlin's control, they are likely to at least want to dominate northern Germany enough to ensure easy access to those rich areas.

If you want to kick Prussia out of those places after 1815, the sole options are either a successful republican movement in the 1848/49 revolutions in most of Germany, including the Rhineland and Westphalia, or a succesful defeat of Prussia by an Austro-French alliance which then leads to, in the short term, Prussia getting kicked out of the German Confederation and in the long term the creation of a Germany unified by Austria (or smaller merger projects closely aligned with Austria).

 

[Clandango]

The Bradenburgers kept invading and hungering for their neighbors who had a lot more industry, commerce, and such than themselves. Some way would need to be found to keep them from acquiring other areas and then to lock them down. Would be difficult for Prussia to keep a sense of smugness for their nation if they kept losing though. Alternatively, we have them lose the War of the Jülich Succession so that thy do not get Cleves, Mark, and Ravensberg. Or Alternatively have them win it. Or just have one of the two sisters who the husbands used to claim the land to marry someone else. Or do something with the Franconian branch of the Hohenzollerns. I do have to wonder just when people would start considering themselves ‘Prussians’ though. Anyone have a source? I assume being the Elector of Brandenburg was the big title for a long time, given the limited amount of electors. Did they start calling themselves Prussia (and I do wonder if Brandburg or Prussia had more of the cultural, military, and political leadership) around the Napoleonic Wars when everyone was becoming Kings, or was it a lot earlier? Think I read something about them being jealous at how so many other German rulers got to be Kings of Poland, Denmark-Norway, Great Britain, Bohemia, etc. They were allowed to style themselves as King in Prussia (referring to the part outside the HRE) in a similar way to how they had to carefully word the name of German later to not imply ruling over the ‘Germans’ outside of Germany. Actually, it was a bit like with Piedmont, taking the name Kingdom f Sardinia for the title, not the grandeur or leadership. If the Prussians seized enough of Poland, would they claim the title Kingdom of Poland?

 

[Zurirach Adankar]

It is not really post 1815 but post 1795.
If the third partition remains permanent, and Prussia would constantly control Warsaw, the kingdom could develop into a different direction.
If Prussia didn't acquire Westphalia and the Rhineland but basically consist of large polish territories a different, less German state might develop.
Maybe a successful integration of the Polish population into the new state could create some Prusso-Polonian binationalism?
That state would be more skeptical of German unity. Pan-Germanists would not only compete with Prussian traditionalists but also supporters of a Prusso-Polonian nation?

 

[Enigmajones]

The POD is in 1923, but in my timeline Prussia separates from the rest of Germany following this worlds Second World War, which took place in the 1970's. Sorry if this is not of help.

 

[Rattenfänger von Memphis]

As Orko’s OP asks, Prussia’s position within the German world and that non-Prussian German world’s opinion of Prussia could both cause Prussia to conceive of herself as much more mainly Prussian rather than superficially German which could be an ambiguous category. The whole Großdeutsche or Kleindeutschland solution showed how complicated this issue was

If you want to kick Prussia out of those places after 1815, the sole options are either a successful republican movement in the 1848/49 revolutions in most of Germany, including the Rhineland and Westphalia

I can think of two, rather remote, possibilities (key word here is REMOTE) based on what Iserlohn has mentioned. And both possibilities come about because King Frederick Wilhelm IV of Prussia refused the offer of a crown of a united Germany from the Frankfurt Parliament in 1849 saying he would not accept “a crown from the gutter”. Earlier Austria had refused to go along with any plans of the Frankfurt Parliament.

But what if another German king were willing to take this crown after Prussia’s refusal and try to unite Germany, excluding Prussia and Austria ? In 1848 – 1849, a majority of Germans were aflame with a desire for a united Germany and their revolts had already forced many concessions from the rulers in Prussia, Austria and the rest of the German states.

One candidate could be the new King of Bavaria, Maximilian II. Bavaria long sought to play a middle role between Prussia and Austria and it would not be the first time Bavaria had snatched the crown of an Emperor. There was the earlier example of Duke Charles Albert of Bavaria who became the Holy Roman Emperor Charles VII from 1742 to 1745 during the War of the Austrian Succession. Why not again ? If Prussia continued to stand aloof, this would only emphasize her “Prussianness” over her “Germanness”.

A second candidate could be King Ernest Augustus of Hanover. Not only does he have a strong link with Great Britain (Queen Victoria was his niece, although they were estranged ) but the existing British government was favorable to Prussia leading a united Germany. They would probably also be amenable to a (essentially) British ruler of Hanover (a country closely associated with Great Britain from 1714 to 1837) becoming the leader of a united Germany.

King Ernest Augustus also had the Steuerverein, a Hanover-led economic rival to Prussia’s Zollverein. His acceptance of this crown and a possible economic challenge to Prussia could only reinforce their “Prussianness” over their common “Germanness”.

Being on the opposite of issues would only emphasize Prussia’s differences from other Germans. In the later Franco-Prussian War of 1870 – 1871, the Crown Prince Frederick of Prussia wrote in his “The War Diary of Emperor Frederick III” how fighting together against the French brought together all Germans, including Prussians, into thinking as one people. The excitement of the German populace then was definitely echoed by the earlier 1848 – 1849 enthusiasm.

“In many ways I deplore the fact that it has fallen to my lot to command the South Germans, an Army little to be depended on.”

“Who would ever before have dreamed that Bavarians and Saxons would greet a Prussian Prince with tumultuous hurrahs specially emphasizing the Unification of our Country.”

“In truth these South Germans gave me just as warm a welcome as we are accustomed to receive in our old Provinces. I felt almost embarrassed in the presence of the King (of Württemberg), who sat beside me in the carriage, for it was manifest these compliments were paid not to him, but to me as representative of the Power that had undertaken the solution of the German question, -- a task the dynasty of Württemberg could hardly be accounted competent to carry through.”

“On the way I visited a Bavarian infantry and cavalry bivouac, taking this opportunity to make acquaintance with the Bavarian soldier. True, the Prussian point of view must be entirely abandoned, for here everything is quite different from what it is with us; clumsiness of build and startling corpulence prevail even in the younger class of levies.
Still the soldier shows quite a smart bearing, only he does not seem accustomed to be addressed by superiors. The way of picketing the horses in bivouac wastes an enormous amount of room.
The men greeted me as if I were one of their own countrymen, in a fashion I have never before found outside Prussia, but indeed I can never again look upon Bavarians and Württembergers as foreigners.”

 

[Salvador79]

I agree with @Iserlohn . 1812-14 is probably the window of opportunity here.

I do have to wonder just when people would start considering themselves ‘Prussians’ though. Anyone have a source? I assume being the Elector of Brandenburg was the big title for a long time, given the limited amount of electors. Did they start calling themselves Prussia (and I do wonder if Brandburg or Prussia had more of the cultural, military, and political leadership) around the Napoleonic Wars when everyone was becoming Kings, or was it a lot earlier? Think I read something about them being jealous at how so many other German rulers got to be Kings of Poland, Denmark-Norway, Great Britain, Bohemia, etc. They were allowed to style themselves as King in Prussia (referring to the part outside the HRE) in a similar way to how they had to carefully word the name of German later to not imply ruling over the ‘Germans’ outside of Germany. Actually, it was a bit like with Piedmont, taking the name Kingdom f Sardinia for the title, not the grandeur or leadership. If the Prussians seized enough of Poland, would they claim the title Kingdom of Poland?

Hohenzollerns became Prussian Kings in 1701, roughly a century before the Napoleonic Wars. Being electors had become basically pointless since HREmperors were always Habsburgs anyway, and the Hohenzollerns wanted something that would elevate them over being mere vassals of the Habsburgs.
King of Prussia was convenient because Old Prussians had been extinct. It was an empty shell they could fill.
King of Poland would come with utterly different strings attached, like the expectation of Poles to really be THEIR monarchs, and a potentially dangerous collision course against the Russian Tsardom because it opens up the path for claiming all formerly Polish-Lithuanian lands... Also, @Zurirach Adankar 's idea of a Prusso-Polonian national idea, as creative and interesting as it is, is bound to be stillborn. Mixing German and Polish identity in the region has no chance in the face of confessional divides (Protestant Germans in Brandenburg vs Catholic Poles) and centuries of German suprematism.

@Rattenfänger von Memphis
remote, yes. I agree with you that they are the "best" options in that time frame, but that does say more about how low the overall chances were.
Not only were both monarchs not quite a good fit for the liberal Paulskirche's visions. Also, how exactly would this rump Germany survive the combined Prusso-Austrian threat?

 

[Clandango]

Any way we can get the people of Livonia on-side? Or at leas the old Hansa cities. I guess it depends on we are going more for a Baltic or Teutonic identity. Might it be we can get away with them not being one state, but there still being a feeling of joint identity? And do you guys think it would be better if the Hohenzollern didn’t get to keep the title of Grandmaster or whatever for centuries? Would that allow the German settlers and knights in the area to get their own identity, or... Ahhh wait, I suppose there would be no Prussian state without them. Might just end up like Courland beneath the Poles. Maybe we can find a way to keep Prussia a separate denomination from the nearby German areas? Doubtful it outdated help, though.

 

[Salvador79]

Any way we can get the people of Livonia on-side? Or at leas the old Hansa cities. I guess it depends on we are going more for a Baltic or Teutonic identity. Might it be we can get away with them not being one state, but there still being a feeling of joint identity? And do you guys think it would be better if the Hohenzollern didn’t get to keep the title of Grandmaster or whatever for centuries? Would that allow the German settlers and knights in the area to get their own identity, or... Ahhh wait, I suppose there would be no Prussian state without them. Might just end up like Courland beneath the Poles. Maybe we can find a way to keep Prussia a separate denomination from the nearby German areas? Doubtful it outdated help, though.

If you have an idea as to how to snatch all this land from Russia, you're on a good track towards a Prussian identity as the Protestant power controlling the Baltic Sea.

 

[Clandango]

If you have an idea as to how to snatch all this land from Russia, you're on a good track towards a Prussian identity as the Protestant power controlling the Baltic Sea.

A shame that Estonia is the Protestant one and it is so close to the Russian capital and so far from the Prussians. Otherwise it might have been possible to do a land trade. The Prussians realistically would not have wanted to give up the wealthy lands on the Rhine, but there was so much territory being traded that they could have given East Frisia to Oldenburg, whose ruler was then closely related to the Czar. Though the Prussians used that in a big trade involving Lauenberg, Swedish Pomerania, Norway, Holstein, Hanover, etc so there would have been a bunch of additional changes. Maybe here we have the Prussian desires for all of Saxony meaning they get it, but lose all the land they hold in Franconia, the Rhine, and around Lower Saxony? Might not help with the nationalism thing. We would need to make sure the dialects or official German in other regions is noticeably different from the Brandenburger version. Maybe if the Prussians didn’t have the Rhenish provinces and everything in the German Confederation (if they have that there) below the rank of Kingdom unifies then- Ahhh, there it is. Have a Kingdom of Germany. Keep Bavaria, Swabia, Austria, Prussia, Saxony out of it and somehow manage to have it strong and a bit of a threat.

 

[Salvador79]

A shame that Estonia is the Protestant one and it is so close to the Russian capital and so far from the Prussians. Otherwise it might have been possible to do a land trade. The Prussians realistically would not have wanted to give up the wealthy lands on the Rhine, but there was so much territory being traded that they could have given East Frisia to Oldenburg, whose ruler was then closely related to the Czar. Though the Prussians used that in a big trade involving Lauenberg, Swedish Pomerania, Norway, Holstein, Hanover, etc so there would have been a bunch of additional changes. Maybe here we have the Prussian desires for all of Saxony meaning they get it, but lose all the land they hold in Franconia, the Rhine, and around Lower Saxony? Might not help with the nationalism thing. We would need to make sure the dialects or official German in other regions is noticeably different from the Brandenburger version. Maybe if the Prussians didn’t have the Rhenish provinces and everything in the German Confederation (if they have that there) below the rank of Kingdom unifies then- Ahhh, there it is. Have a Kingdom of Germany. Keep Bavaria, Swabia, Austria, Prussia, Saxony out of it and somehow manage to have it strong and a bit of a threat.

Ah, you had also asked about when people considered themselves "Brandenburger" and when "Prussians".
Well, I think very few ordinary people ever considered themselves Brandenburgers by nationality. They belonged to a certain village or town, and beyond that, they were German speakers, and Lutherans. In other parts of Germany, you had regional identities which had very old roots: Bavarians, Franconians, Swabians, Hessians etc. The German-speaking population of the electorate of Brandenburg came from very different tribal backgrounds in the context of the Ostsiedlung. Varieties of Northern German dialects ("Platt") were spoken in most parts.
Being "Prussian" as a political identity began as an enlightened-absolutist elite project; it had a degree of a chance as a national identity in the anti-Napoleonic Wars, but already then it was sidelined by narratives of a German identity. It would have to fully unfold in the course of a different 19th century, like most nationalisms. Throughout much of OTL's 19th century, especially Prussia's elites saw themselves as Prussians AND Germans.

"Plattdütsch" IS markedly different from High German varieties. But it stretches across the Mecklenburgs, Holstein, the Hanseatic towns, Oldenburg, Hannover etc., too.
If you want this language to standardise separately from Southern German varieties, you'd need a much earlier PoD. Luther not using the Meißner Kanzleideutsch for his Bible, but instead Hanseatic commercial "koiné", would have done that trick. Creating a "Protestant Low German" and a "Catholic High German". But that changes so much of modern history that you won't recognise it really.

 

[Gloss]

Is there a way to keep Prussia out of the Rhineland following the Napoleonic Wars? If you can manage this, you'll likely see Prussia keep its attention on the East, and if it expands out that way, and absords more of the Baltic and so forth, that might help matters a bit.

Even if they don't have the Rhineland they would at least have Westfalia which should tie them to the West through economic integration with the Rhineland.
At this point Prussia has been tied to the rest of Germany since Brandenburg annexed, as Brandenburg had control of Kleves and some other Western territories which slowly expanded in the 18th century.

 

[Jürgen]

I agree with @Iserlohn . 1812-14 is probably the window of opportunity here.

Hohenzollerns became Prussian Kings in 1701, roughly a century before the Napoleonic Wars. Being electors had become basically pointless since HREmperors were always Habsburgs anyway, and the Hohenzollerns wanted something that would elevate them over being mere vassals of the Habsburgs.
King of Prussia was convenient because Old Prussians had been extinct. It was an empty shell they could fill.

It's more complex than that and not connected to the Old Prussians. The Duchy of Prussia had been a sovereign state since 1657 rather than a Polish vassal. This meant the elector of Brandenburg was an Imperial vassal in their domains in the kingdom of Germany/HRE but a sovereign prince (with the title of duke) in Ducal Prussia. Because they were a sovereign prince, the emperor raised the duke to King in Prussia. This "in" is really interesting, because it meant Prussia was still just a duchy and not a kingdom (this changed later). This de facto meant that duke of Prussia now also was king of a kingdom which didn't exist, and this non-existing kingdom was the overlord of the Duchy of Prussia. The concept is really interesting, and I don't know if we have other examples of this model elsewhere. All this could only happen because the Hohenzollern electors already were sovereign lords if Ducal Prussia had stayed a Polish vassal the emperor would not have had the legal right to do this, not that they couldn't have done in anyway, but it would not necessary have been recognized in that case.

 

[Johannes Parisiensis]

And how to convince Poles and Baltics to join such a Prussian identity?

Sure, before national awakenings, German were the upper class in the Baltics and set the cultural tone but Polish identity was already strong even before the Partitions.

 

[Anarch King of Dipsodes]

One needs to go back to the 1500s. Teutonic Grand Master Frederick of Saxony lives another 35 years. He is GM when the Reformation breaks out, becomes and becomes Duke of Prussia instead of Albert of Ansbach. Prussia is ruled by Wettins not Hohenzollerns.