Prussian-led Grossdeutschland in 1866-1867?

What would it take to have, by the aforementioned time, have a Prussian-led Grossdeutschland by the time of the Austro-Prussian war? Would a more decisive defeat of the Austrians in said war do it, or perhaps a failure of the Ausgleich?

What would this Grossdeutschland look like? What would be its symbolism, flag, etc.
 
What would it take to have, by the aforementioned time, have a Prussian-led Grossdeutschland by the time of the Austro-Prussian war? Would a more decisive defeat of the Austrians in said war do it, or perhaps a failure of the Ausgleich?

What would this Grossdeutschland look like? What would be its symbolism, flag, etc.

I think a different 1848 could do it. The Prussian king accepting the crown and going to war for Germany, the Hapsburgs failing spectacularly in their wars with Italy and the Hungarians.

The major requirement therefore is to keep the other great power preoccupied so that Prussian-led unification is a fait accompli before Russia or France can react.

Not having Schleswig-Holstein as part of Denmark before 1848 would help as well.
 
The problem is that Bismarck was totally against Grossdeutschland. Something sould force his hand heavily to accomplish this.
 
What would have been needed was an even quicker and more devastating defeat of Austria in 1866. Wilhelm I wanted to savour the moment and march into Vienna - however, Bismarck enticed him away from prolonging the war even further, as he feared French and possibly Russian intervention in that case. Had the Prussian advance been even faster than in OTL, and had they been able to capture Vienna -forcing Franz Joseph I fleeing to Hungary-, it could have led to an Austrian surrender. In the following peace treaty, the German part of the Austrian Empire (Deutschösterreich, Bohemia, Moravia, Krain, Littoral, etc.) might have had been ceded to Prussia, while Franz Joseph I would stay in power as the King (or even Kaiser?) of the Hungarian parts of the Austrian Empire; which would thus have ceased to exist, only to be replaced by a 'Kingdom of Hungary'/'Hungarian Empire'.

However, the French would have reacted extremely negative to this sudden rise in Prussian power, and the OTL war of 1870/1871 might have come much earlier in this case - and then maybe with Russian assistance.
 
Queen Edward II³-(IV+II²) said:
However, the French would have reacted extremely negative to this sudden rise in Prussian power, and the OTL war of 1870/1871 might have come much earlier in this case - and then maybe with Russian assistance.

I'd say pretty certainly with Russian and British assistance.
 
I'd say pretty certainly with Russian and British assistance.

Nah. They might be slightly alarmed by the sudden rise in power for Prussia, but they would certainly not go to war over this issue. Neither is Prussia a colonial power yet, nor do they have the naval power to do Britain any harm.
 
The problem is that Bismarck was totally against Grossdeutschland. Something sould force his hand heavily to accomplish this.

Bismarck is too late nad doesn't have the opportunity, IMHO. As said before, Bismarck's wars would see intervention once he's about to annex large parts of Austria.

I really think that a different revolution of 1848 could do it. France was preoccupied - or can be made even more preoccupied. Russia can be bought with the Balkans and Galicia - or be left out fighting pro-Habsburg wars in Hungary. Italy could be an ally of Prussia against the Habsburgs, Hungary will be. An earlier POD (Congress of Vienna?) could help keeping the Danes out.
 

ingemann

Banned
I think a different 1848 could do it. The Prussian king accepting the crown and going to war for Germany, the Hapsburgs failing spectacularly in their wars with Italy and the Hungarians.

The major requirement therefore is to keep the other great power preoccupied so that Prussian-led unification is a fait accompli before Russia or France can react.

Not having Schleswig-Holstein as part of Denmark before 1848 would help as well.

That war was a lot more complex than that, Prussia primary intervened because they saw it as a war, where the Conservative Holsteiners supported the Danish king against the new liberal regime in Copenhagen, which had couped the king.

A more liberal Prussia (which is needed for the Prussian king to take the imperial crown) would likely not support the reactionary Holsteiners. Instead we may get a relative short Schleswig War, which end with Schleswig being annexed by the Danish state, while Holstein-Lauenburg end up only in personal union with Denmark and part of the new German Empire.
 
Supporting France against Prussia would only serve to concrete the French hegemony in the Western Europe.
At this period France doesn't have "hegemony in the Western Europe"... and letting Prussia swallow-up so much of Central Europe would create a significantly worse imbalance.
This is, after all, only seven or so years before the date for the OTL Crimean War which was also basically over 'balance of power'... and Russia swallowing up a sizeable chunk of the Ottoman lands was arguably less serious a threat to the balance than Prussia grabbing such a large chunk of the Habsburgs' domains would have been.
And remember, this is barely a generation after the Congress of Vienna had actually tried to fix the balance on a long-term basis.
 
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That war was a lot more complex than that, Prussia primary intervened because they saw it as a war, where the Conservative Holsteiners supported the Danish king against the new liberal regime in Copenhagen, which had couped the king.

A more liberal Prussia (which is needed for the Prussian king to take the imperial crown) would likely not support the reactionary Holsteiners. Instead we may get a relative short Schleswig War, which end with Schleswig being annexed by the Danish state, while Holstein-Lauenburg end up only in personal union with Denmark and part of the new German Empire.

The mode of partition doesn't really matter here as long as it's done beforehand. Prussia can win against Denmark, but the situation required here does not allow for Prussia to fight on yet another front.

So it's really only to avoid war. If there is an independent Holstein as member of the Confederation and Schleswig is fully incorporated into Denmark at the time the Prussians set out to build Greater Germany then be it. From my veiwpoint, it's just helpful to avoid another front.
 
Nah. They might be slightly alarmed by the sudden rise in power for Prussia, but they would certainly not go to war over this issue. Neither is Prussia a colonial power yet, nor do they have the naval power to do Britain any harm.

This destroys their carefully built balance of power in Europe, the maintaining of which was the central piece of British foreign policy.
 
Throwing in buzzwords won't really support your point. Apart from that, the 'balance of power' is not even in peril yet, for the reasons I stated above.

But it clearly is. Prussia swallowing up half of Central Europe would make them by far the most powerful nation in Europe on a scale entirely beyond France. The points you bring up are irrelevant to the balance of power in Europe which pertains to the British land power in Europe.
 
Throwing in buzzwords won't really support your point. Apart from that, the 'balance of power' is not even in peril yet, for the reasons I stated above.
You have the dissolution of the Habsburg Empire, a cornerstone of the Congressional balance of power, and the formation of a gigantic colossus in Central Europe, which by all economic and military metrics now has the capability of taking on two major powers at once with the distinct possibility of winning.

I fail to see how that won't be considered a major geopolitical shift of European power.
 

katchen

Banned
Yes indeed. That's why 1848 is probably the best--maybe the only feasible time --to create Grossdeutschland. In 1848, the Concert of Europe is strained to it's breaking point by the set of revolutions that have been breaking out across Europe. France is in no shape to be intervening against Prussia because France in 1848 is involved with trying to make the Second Republic work. The Second Empire dosen't come in until 1852.
Which is why in 1848, the only thing that saved the Habsburgs from Hungarian nationalists was Russian intervention. The Russians can still intervene ITTL. But Prussia can appease them by offering them the opportunity to not only stay in Hungary and annex it (thus keeping Slovakia and Galicia too) but also annex Slovenia and Croatia, giving Russia frontage on the Adriatic Sea and ports at Fiume (Riijaka), Pola (Pula), Spolato (Split) and Ragusa (Dubrovnik) at the very least. And if Tsar Nicholas chooses to follow up on his pan-Slavic dream from there by quickly seizing Bosnia-Hercegovina, Serbia, Bulgaria, Wallachia, Moldavia, Dobruja, Albania and Thrace up to and perhaps even including Constantinople from the Ottomans, only the British will oppose him. The Concert of Europe will basically be dead. All if Nicholas does not interfere with the inclusion of Deutschosterreich, Bohemia and Moravia in Grossdeutschland. Russia will even get a common border with Italy--one of it'a prime markets for grain--out of the deal. It's need for a warm water port or ports will basically be satisfied---even if Russia does not take Constantinople. or bother the Ottoman Empire but only keeps the Dalmatian Adriatic Coast. With that kind of powerful incentive to unseat the Concert of Europe, Grossdeutschland is feasible in 1840.
 
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