Prussian Bornholm?

Hey Guys,

Is there a way of getting Prussia the island of Bornholm and keeping it? If the Prussians had struck a more resounding victory against the Danes in the Second Schleswig War could we have seen Bismark demanding Bornholm? I doubt he'd take any of the Danish Empire as that would've gotten the attention of Britain, but maybe Bornholm would be a small enough gain to appease his own people?
 

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Prussia and later the united Germany were supreme in the Baltic Sea anyway. There would be no need to risk bad diplomatic relationships with the British Empire for gaining one island. Bismarck was too smart for that.
 
Bismarck didn't even want territories that were predominantly German from their arch enemy. You'd have a hard time justifying annexing a historically and ethnically Danish island, without any real importance for Prussia anyway.
 
Bismarck didn't even want territories that were predominantly German from their arch enemy. You'd have a hard time justifying annexing a historically and ethnically Danish island, without any real importance for Prussia anyway.

Considering Germany annexed the entirety of Schleswig, including the preodominantly Danish Northern Schleswig, which would of had alot more people than Bornholm (which had around 30,000 people at the time), I don't think demographics would have been a problem, plus Bornholm could easily be justified in annexing since it is a very strategic place and would essentially allow Prussia/Germany to control passage in the Baltic.
 
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Considering Germany annexed the entirety of Schleswig, including the preodominantly Danish Northern Schleswig, which would of had alot more people than Bornholm (around 30,000 people at the time), I don't think demographics would have been a problem, plus Bornholm could easily be taken since it is a very strategic place and would essentially allow Prussia/Germany to control passage in the Baltic.

Would Britain allow it? And what could happen in the war that would allow such a demand?
 
Would Britain allow it? And what could happen in the war that would allow such a demand?

I don't think Britain would really give a damn, I mean I don't suspect they were doing a booming trade with Russi via the Baltic.

And OTL would really, I mean the Danish loss was major, I mean you don't think a country that (along with Prussia) was previously referred to as a 'Military with a State' would give away such a huge integral part of it's mainland territory in a normal loss situation do you?
 
Considering Germany annexed the entirety of Schleswig, including the preodominantly Danish Northern Schleswig, which would of had alot more people than Bornholm (which had around 30,000 people at the time), I don't think demographics would have been a problem, plus Bornholm could easily be justified in annexing since it is a very strategic place and would essentially allow Prussia/Germany to control passage in the Baltic.

Well, Schleswig was the whole reason for war. They have a justification to annex it, it's far from the same as it would be with Bornholm. They have no historical, ethnical or economical claim on the island.
 
Well, Schleswig was the whole reason for war. They have a justification to annex it, it's far from the same as it would be with Bornholm. They have no historical, ethnical or economical claim on the island.

To be quite frank, unless we're talkign about highly populous areas it does'nt much matter if an area has ethnic or historic ties, if it's seen as useful it will be pursued.
 
With Schleswig, the actual demands were Holstein and southern Schleswig, but there were issues over dissolving the tradition union of the Duchies of Schleswig and Holstein, and the concept of dividing Schleswig itself. If Bismarck had been able to convince the King of Denmark to cede Holstein and Schleswig south of Flensburg, he would have taken that rather than push for the rest of Schleswig. Bornholm just doesn't have the same importance for Germany. Did Prussia show any interest in Bornholm OTL?
 
To be quite frank, unless we're talkign about highly populous areas it does'nt much matter if an area has ethnic or historic ties, if it's seen as useful it will be pursued.

That's the thing though, it's useless. It's not the 1500s anymore, there is no strong Nordic power to threaten Prussia from the north. It's not a "Belfort of the North", it's just a small island with some medieval ruins.

My opinion is that it is of no strategic value whatsoever for Prussia in the 19th century. They wouldn't risk anything to gain it, unless Denmark offers it to them for free for whatever reason.
 
That's the thing though, it's useless. It's not the 1500s anymore, there is no strong Nordic power to threaten Prussia from the north. It's not a "Belfort of the North", it's just a small island with some medieval ruins.

My opinion is that it is of no strategic value whatsoever for Prussia in the 19th century. They wouldn't risk anything to gain it, unless Denmark offers it to them for free for whatever reason.

I disagree in that I think controlling the Eastern Baltic sea and the route in general would be of value to Prussia/Germany.
 
I disagree in that I think controlling the Eastern Baltic sea and the route in general would be of value to Prussia/Germany.

While that is of course true, would it really be worth it though? I might be wrong but it would most likely antagonise not only Britain but Russia too, essentially boxing in Prussia between hostile powers...
 
While that is of course true, would it really be worth it though? I might be wrong but it would most likely antagonise not only Britain but Russia too, essentially boxing in Prussia between hostile powers...

Russia might not like it, but I doubt Britain would care that much, since it does'nt really effect or threaten them.
 
First of all, the Baltic trade is controlled through the Sound and the Belts, not at Bornholm. The sea is too wide where Bornholm is to control anything. Ships can just stay out of sight, which they cannot at the Sound and the Belts.

While both Shleswig and Holstein were traditionally part of the Holy Roman Empire and had a substantial German-speaking population, Bornholm was neither.

1864, Prussia had a fleet of 4 slow steam-powered gunboats and had to ask Austria for help against Denmark's navy. They have no means to get to Bornholm, no navy to invade it and hold it against the inevitable rising and no way of reinforcing the troops there should they actually get ashore.

1864, Bornholm is not a strategic island. It lacks the forests and the hemp growing fields as well as the industry to maintain a fleet and is thus close to useless as a naval base from a 19th century perspective. Once sea mine warfare is discovered things will be different, but that was an odd thing tested for harbour defence 1864 (and unsuccessful at that).

In short, Prussia does not gain anything, loses a LOT of diplomatic prestige annexing land that is neither German-speaking nor traditionally a part of the Holy Roman Empire or Germany by any definition. What are the Prussians going to tell the Russians, the British and the French? "Yeah, don't worry, this is just a local war in Germany, but we're also annexing land in the Baltic just to build and Empire, don't mind us at all."
 
Well, if anything, having Germany take Bornholm would do one thing: Scare the living shit out of the Swedes. Bornholm is just a few miles off the Scanian coast.
 
First of all, the Baltic trade is controlled through the Sound and the Belts, not at Bornholm. The sea is too wide where Bornholm is to control anything. Ships can just stay out of sight, which they cannot at the Sound and the Belts.

While both Shleswig and Holstein were traditionally part of the Holy Roman Empire and had a substantial German-speaking population, Bornholm was neither.

1864, Prussia had a fleet of 4 slow steam-powered gunboats and had to ask Austria for help against Denmark's navy. They have no means to get to Bornholm, no navy to invade it and hold it against the inevitable rising and no way of reinforcing the troops there should they actually get ashore.

1864, Bornholm is not a strategic island. It lacks the forests and the hemp growing fields as well as the industry to maintain a fleet and is thus close to useless as a naval base from a 19th century perspective. Once sea mine warfare is discovered things will be different, but that was an odd thing tested for harbour defence 1864 (and unsuccessful at that).

In short, Prussia does not gain anything, loses a LOT of diplomatic prestige annexing land that is neither German-speaking nor traditionally a part of the Holy Roman Empire or Germany by any definition. What are the Prussians going to tell the Russians, the British and the French? "Yeah, don't worry, this is just a local war in Germany, but we're also annexing land in the Baltic just to build and Empire, don't mind us at all."

I fully agree with that.

If, for whatever reason, German Bornholm is nevertheless asked for, I propose an earlier POD, thus Brandenburg/Prussia gaining Bornholm in the 18th century or earlier. At that time, nobody would really care about historical claims and the will of the population and by negotiation of the powers many surprising territorial swaps were possible.
 
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