Prussian Belgium

[Hawkeye]

If the Congress of Vienna failed and the provisional borders were kept in place then how will this affect the territory of what will eventually become Belgium under Prussian occupation and what could Prussia do if it somehow kept those lands?

Prussia would also annex all of Saxony in this scenario in exchange for something with the Russians.

 

[Anderman]

Next thing what would happened is that the brits bring napoleon back to Paris

IIRC great britain wanted prussia away from any north sea port to close to the british isles.

 

[Mikestone8]

Next thing what would happened is that the brits bring napoleon back to Paris

IIRC great britain wanted prussia away from any north sea port to close to the british isles.

In 1815? I wouldn't have thought so.

Britain never had any problem with the "Southern Netherlands" being Austrian, since in the 18C Austria wan't a naval power. In 1815, neither was Prussia.

 

[RyuDrago]

However it was the arrival of Blucher and the Prussian which determinated the victory of Waterloo and save Belgium, so the Prussian could claim it as ulterior prize from their determinant contribute...

 

[Arrix85]

This is a very interesting PoD!

I think It would be unlikely It would go at war with an ally so soon after the victory. Any war would be probably against the public opinion, at least when it comes to meddling again in continental Europe. To keep Britain's worry in check maybe it could be enough a Prussian promise to not put any naval force there.

 

[Anderman]

In 1815? I wouldn't have thought so.

Britain never had any problem with the "Southern Netherlands" being Austrian, since in the 18C Austria wan't a naval power. In 1815, neither was Prussia.

At the Congress of Vienna

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congress_of_Vienna#Other_changes

East Frisia and other territories of prussia were given to the Kingdom of Hannover and the "Souther Netherlands" were given to the House of Orange.
So i still say the Brits want Prussia not to be to close to their isle

 

[Mikestone8]

At the Congress of Vienna

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congress_of_Vienna#Other_changes

East Frisia and other territories of prussia were given to the Kingdom of Hannover and the "Souther Netherlands" were given to the House of Orange.
So i still say the Brits want Prussia not to be to close to their isle

I still can't see any evidence for that. Naturally, the King of Hanover (and Britain) was happy enough to acquire more land, but that doesn't imply any hostility to Prussia. And if we had wanted to keep Prussia out of Belgium, would we have agreed to give the same territory to the King of Prussia's brother-in-law?

If Prussia didn't get Belgium, this was more probably because she didn't want it. She didn't even particularly want the Rhineland, which was Catholic, liberal and in some quarters pro-French, and would far rather have received land in the east, either getting her Polish territories back or else acquiring Saxony in lieu.

Possible scenario. During the Hundred Days, Belgium rebels against Dutch rule, and some Belgian troops go over to Napoleon. King Willem decides he cannot absorb Belgium, or the Allies decide that he will not be able to control it, so all or part of it goes to Prussia instead.

 

[stevep]

Hawkeye

I can see Prussia possibly getting Belgium, by negotiation as compensation for possibly less land elsewhere. It is Catholic and non-Germany, although the latter point probably wouldn't have been that important at the time. However it is in a good position to check future French ambitions and it's highly developed economically so would be useful for Prussia.

I've never heard of any British hostility to Prussia having the region and Prussia was still seen as the weakest of the great powers for a while yet so Britain would probably have been favourable if Dutch control had fallen through for some reason. Would have been potentials for social clashes, especially if Prussia got it's OTL Rhine territories as well, instead of a slice of Saxony say. As Mikestone8 said Prussia was initially ambivalent about getting the liberal and Catholic Rhineland.

Such a transfer would almost certainly come about as a result of negotiations however. Have heard there was some tension in the period with a near clash between Prussia-Russia and Britain-France-Austria over the formers initial aims [Russia getting all of Poland and Prussia all of Saxony were I think the point of dispute]. If it had come to a clash on those lines I think the key point would have been how well the French army fought. If decently the western alliance would probably have had a clear edge but it might have been nasty.

Steve

 

[Anderman]

Can somebody draw a map how it would look like after the congress ?

 

[Uriel]

If the Congress of Vienna failed and the provisional borders were kept in place then how will this affect the territory of what will eventually become Belgium under Prussian occupation and what could Prussia do if it somehow kept those lands?

Prussia would also annex all of Saxony in this scenario in exchange for something with the Russians.

That map is interesting. Where is it from?

 

[Hawkeye]

That map is interesting. Where is it from?

Susano posted on a different thread a while back.

 

[Anderman]

The map and other can be found here

http://www.german.fm-search.org/His...eutschland-im-zeitraum-von-1378-bis-1945.html

 

[Hawkeye]

Hawkeye

I can see Prussia possibly getting Belgium, by negotiation as compensation for possibly less land elsewhere. It is Catholic and non-Germany, although the latter point probably wouldn't have been that important at the time. However it is in a good position to check future French ambitions and it's highly developed economically so would be useful for Prussia.

I've never heard of any British hostility to Prussia having the region and Prussia was still seen as the weakest of the great powers for a while yet so Britain would probably have been favourable if Dutch control had fallen through for some reason. Would have been potentials for social clashes, especially if Prussia got it's OTL Rhine territories as well, instead of a slice of Saxony say. As Mikestone8 said Prussia was initially ambivalent about getting the liberal and Catholic Rhineland.

Such a transfer would almost certainly come about as a result of negotiations however. Have heard there was some tension in the period with a near clash between Prussia-Russia and Britain-France-Austria over the formers initial aims [Russia getting all of Poland and Prussia all of Saxony were I think the point of dispute]. If it had come to a clash on those lines I think the key point would have been how well the French army fought. If decently the western alliance would probably have had a clear edge but it might have been nasty.

Steve

I basically agree with almost everything here. I'd say that if it resulted in war then it would be an Prussian/Russian victory and that there would be a couple swaps after like Austria trades the Palatine with Bavaria for Salzburg while the Danish keep Swedish Pomerania since Hanover will be more hostile to Prussia after the war. And the Russian might stay in a personal union with Jever exct.

Can somebody draw a map how it would look like after the congress ?

Here you go. Thanks everyone.

 

[Anderman]

Thanks for the map Hawkeye.

Another way how Prussia could gain is the not partition of Saxony

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=180483

so the Kingdom of Saxony lost no territory most likely gains the prussian enclave around Cottbus, instead of Saxony Prussia gets Belgium.

Btw why did nobody tell me that the correct word partition and partification ?

 

[Monty Burns]

Here you go. Thanks everyone.

Nice map! I like how you exchanged East Frisia for Dutch Limburg. Very sensible choice.

Some nitpicks, though: I doubt that the Prussians would give up Silesia to Russia. Basically, Russia gains Posen, Silesia and Galicia additionally to what they got IOTL - definitely to much.

Bavaria is another state which gains more than IOTL thanks to a massively enlarged Palatinate.

Austria got away significantly worse - they have what they got IOTL minus Galicia.

And I think the French borders to Palatinate are the pre-100-days borders, whereas in Italy you took the post-100-days borders. Given that you massively changed the gains of the other powers, I think it's likely that compensation comes in the form of French territory, hence France should have rather less than IOTL post-100-days.

 

[Arrix85]

Some nitpicks, though: I doubt that the Prussians would give up Silesia to Russia. Basically, Russia gains Posen, Silesia and Galicia additionally to what they got IOTL - definitely to much.

I have to agree with him. Prussia gave up too much on the east. imho Silesia is out of the question, while Poznan could be in the cards...

 

[Hörnla]

This sketch has become silly (partially)

Nice map! I like how you exchanged East Frisia for Dutch Limburg. Very sensible choice.

Well, in a way yes, regarding that national identification was not yet set in stone in some parts along that border.

Some nitpicks, though: I doubt that the Prussians would give up Silesia to Russia. Basically, Russia gains Posen, Silesia and Galicia
additionally to what they got IOTL - definitely to much.

I completely agree with that one. Just two generations earlier, Prussia had fought three wars to control Silesia, an economical asset without which Prussia wouldn't
be a big power. They would be insane to give that away in order to have a far west enclave which may or may not be lost to France one day or which might prove to be
too unruly to be a powerbase.

Actually, the map looks like a peace dictated by Russia. But even in such a case, I think that they would rather go for East Prussia and the port of Königsberg.

Bavaria is another state which gains more than IOTL thanks to a massively enlarged Palatinate.

Austria got away significantly worse - they have what they got IOTL minus Galicia.

And what have they done to deserve this....

 

[Arrix85]

The whole idea is interesting, will you make it a full ATL?

 

[Valdemar II]

Actually, the map looks like a peace dictated by Russia. But even in such a case, I think that they would rather go for East Prussia and the port of Königsberg.

Oh yes, control with East or West Prussia make much more sense both economical, political and military than Silesia. I can see this map are build on one of my old ones, and I traded Saxony for Silesia, which was traded for Galicia. Taking Galicia from Austria and not give them anything in return make little sense. Austria was on the victors side and a Russian ally, there are no way Russia would get away with this.

 

[Mikestone8]

Austria got away significantly worse - they have what they got IOTL minus Galicia.

She might be compensated by a channge to the succession rules in Piedmont/Sardinia. If Victor Emmanuel I's daughter were allowed to succeed him, that means the Kingdom is inherited by the Habsburg Grand Dukes of Modena. Changes later Italian history a bit.