Prussia Stand-In Wanted

If the Dutch somehow develop a sense of manifest destiny during the 17th century similar to that of Venice in North Italy during the 15th-16th century, then they could pull it off during the 30 Years' War.
 
It was mentioned that Bavaria could have if they had gotten territory outside of the Holy Roman Empire in Northern Italy. I believe it was Austria's Leopold I who almost died in 1670, which would have left his one-year-old daughter ruler of Austria.

She married into Bavaria anyway and I could imagine Bavaria taking over Austria in this timeline. They would probably let Hungary go and try to put a friendly wittelsbach on the throne, and then make some sort of arrangement with Spain to make sure that they got Milan or more - maybe give Spain the former Austrian Netherlands. Or whatever Louis XIV wanted Bavaria to have since he was a strong opponent of the Habsburgs and a Bavariana ally anyway. Spain under Charles II could probably be coerced to give up a lot. The Wittelsbachs taking Austria could be an excuse that they give to keep it out of French hands even without that, and then just Milan would be a start.

They can afford to take it slow and get more and more of Germany over the next Century or two.
 
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I want to be original!
Hesse avoids partitioning into different states (or manages to reunite). Then avoids the Hessian War and the devastation of the Thirty Years' War. Then one of its leaders with his base of mercenaries creates a permanent army overpowered by the size of his state. Finally his heirs manage to unify part of the Holy Empire/Germany.
 
I want to be original!
Hesse avoids partitioning into different states (or manages to reunite). Then avoids the Hessian War and the devastation of the Thirty Years' War. Then one of its leaders with his base of mercenaries creates a permanent army overpowered by the size of his state. Finally his heirs manage to unify part of the Holy Empire/Germany.
Seriously we've hessians as a meme, why we never pulled a super Hesse here is weird, as you say, rather partition, they got some lucky inherances and become a nations of mercenary.

Of course more sucessful hessians means the US war of independance might end in a loss for the 13th colonies
 
Seriously we've hessians as a meme, why we never pulled a super Hesse here is weird, as you say, rather partition, they got some lucky inherances and become a nations of mercenary.

Of course more sucessful hessians means the US war of independance might end in a loss for the 13th colonies
Even before the American War of Independence, butterflies are likely to be beating. It's true that I found almost nothing on this site about an alternative Hesse.
In my chronology I have started to talk about it but I don't know anyone who does.
 
Even before the American War of Independence, butterflies are likely to be beating. It's true that I found almost nothing on this site about an alternative Hesse.
In my chronology I have started to talk about it but I don't know anyone who does.
Yeah that is why is strange, Hesse is an old meme yet no one took the next step to make the meme pausable
 
I was just thinking out loud. Brandenburg and Saxony could end up in a permanent union and become Prussia in all but name, considering the Brandenburg part of Brandenburg-Prussia was the dominant one in their union.
Honestly, "Prussia" itself never mattered very much. Brandenburg was always the shining star, and I actually don't think Poland necessarily changes that much. Hell, Brandenburg may well focus on Germany earlier without the distraction of Prussia.
 
Honestly, "Prussia" itself never mattered very much. Brandenburg was always the shining star, and I actually don't think Poland necessarily changes that much. Hell, Brandenburg may well focus on Germany earlier without the distraction of Prussia.
Aside from the initial infusion of cash into the Hohenzollern coffers, Prussia mattered because, as a territory outside the HRE, the Duke of Brandenburg could have legally become a king there, once it got out from under the PLC.
 
Aside from the initial infusion of cash into the Hohenzollern coffers, Prussia mattered because, as a territory outside the HRE, the Duke of Brandenburg could have legally become a king there, once it got out from under the PLC.
Which didn't happen until 1701. King in Prussia is a convenient legal fiction that the Emperor could use to justify giving the Great Elector a crown, but if the Emperor wanted Brandenburg's aid, he would have found another way to do it anyways.
 
Which didn't happen until 1701. King in Prussia is a convenient legal fiction that the Emperor could use to justify giving the Great Elector a crown, but if the Emperor wanted Brandenburg's aid, he would have found another way to do it anyways.
The Thing is..if not prussia..maybe Brandenburg push early for hesse as they wanted?
 
The Thing is..if not prussia..maybe Brandenburg push early for hesse as they wanted?
When was Hesse on the table? I'm all for it, but I'm unaware of it.

To the OP, the thing with Ducal Prussia is that it doesn't become part of Brandenburg until 1618. By that point, Brandenburg has already planted some seeds for expansion through its acquisition of Cleve-Mark in 1614. Lack of Ducal Prussia does very little to change Brandenburg role in the Thirty Year's war, it was pretty peripheral and didn't provide many troops, and it was the Thirty Years War that set Brandenburg up for its later expansions under the name "Prussia." I suppose the case can be made that lack of Ducal Prussia ever existing butterflies everything in Europe... I'm a bit more conservative about butterflies like that and don't really think a whole lot changes myself, but that's me.
 
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When was Hesse on the table? I'm all for it, but I'm unaware of it
I think when one of the frederick married a hessian princess...not remember one.will need to look the source but the issue is might be on german.

That would be an unique POD, brandenburg becoming more powerful in spite of prussia...if anythign would be sweden the one to took prussia..ummm
 
At the time of first partition, Maria Theresia didn't even wanted to participate in it, and Joseph just wanted more land for Austria.
Really? IIRC, the Hapsburgs were a driving force behind the 1st Partition and ended up with the economically best piece of a territory.
 
Poland Self Destruct alone with some Austria and Russia here, here Sweden could took prussian place, again butterflies would make poland die faster or slower, just become an austria vassal as the habsburg wanted it
The PLC chance as a regional super-anything was pretty much lost by mid-XVII, which means that Prussia-related premise is a bogus one because it’s role at the Deluge was minor and by 1700 when the PLC was just a Swedish-Saxon-Prussian battleground Prussia only started its raise as the European factor.
 
The PLC chance as a regional super-anything was pretty much lost by mid-XVII, which means that Prussia-related premise is a bogus one because it’s role at the Deluge was minor and by 1700 when the PLC was just a Swedish-Saxon-Prussian battleground Prussia only started its raise as the European factor.
That is why i mentioned Self Destruct Alone, if anything just now Sweden would took the free chances otl prussia took here
 
That is why i mentioned Self Destruct Alone, if anything just now Sweden would took the free chances otl prussia took here
Good idea. In OTL Prussia got its first “chance” after the Deluge when it became formally independent from the PLC (1657). For Sweden this would not make sense because it never was Polish vassal. So if we eliminate Prussia (leaving only Brandenburg) we may have as an equivalent Sweden conquering territory of OTL Ducal Prussia (with an open question of its status prior to this conquest). Sweden has a considerably more territory on the Eastern Baltic coast but this does not seriously impact the PLC position because in the OTL it does not have that territory anyway. So the main factor is still self-destruction.

For Sweden “playing Prussia” we need to eliminate the GNW after which Sweden was too weakened to play its role.
 
Really? IIRC, the Hapsburgs were a driving force behind the 1st Partition and ended up with the economically best piece of a territory.
It was all about "Joseph wanted more lands for Austria". Maria Theresia didn't want to weaken fellow Catholic state in favor of Orthodox Russia and Protesstant Prussia.
 
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