Prussia gains all of Saxony at the congress of Vienna

One of the things I was contemplating for my timeline was Prussia gaining all of Saxony at the Congress of Vienna (which may or may not be at Vienna). I was wondering how likely such a thing is.
Must the ruler of Saxony be compensated with some other territory or isn't that nescesary? Personaly I was thinking of giving him either the Palatine/Pfalz or maybe create a Westphalia out of part of the Prussian Rhineland.
Futhermore I was wondering if the other powers would accept a strong Prussia, that would have all of Saxony and the Rhineland.
 

Susano

Banned
Apparently in the 1820s the Prussians proposed exchanging Saxony with Rhineland-Westphalia. After all, the Ruhr Agglemeration didnt exist yet, the Rhineland wasrelatively poor, while Saxony was one of the richest territories in Germany... of course the Saxon King declined. So Prussia would be willing to do that, it seems.

The problem is, the Saxon King isnt, and Austria isnt, either. It surely doesnt want to lose its buffer against Prussia...

The Palatinate doesnt work. Bavaria will then go "And what else do we gain as compensation for Salzburg?" ;)
 
Maybe they could give him the Rhineland instead. (I read in my old lexicon that the integration of heavily French-influenced, Catholic, more hedonistic into militaristic, Protestant Prussia wasn't that easy. And having grown up there, I know that the Rhenish carnival was supposed to make fun of the Prussian military and such.)

BTW, in DoD the Saxon king gets Switzerland instead.
 

General Zod

Banned
Futhermore I was wondering if the other powers would accept a strong Prussia, that would have all of Saxony and the Rhineland.

If they are concerned that a strong Prussia is needed to balance some other power (e.g. France, Austria, Russia) or liberal/nationalistic revolutionaries, and/or Prussia seems strong and deserving enough (e.g. they fare better in the war against Napoleon), they will.
 
Apparently in the 1820s the Prussians proposed exchanging Saxony with Rhineland-Westphalia. After all, the Ruhr Agglemeration didnt exist yet, the Rhineland wasrelatively poor, while Saxony was one of the richest territories in Germany... of course the Saxon King declined. So Prussia would be willing to do that, it seems.

The problem is, the Saxon King isnt, and Austria isnt, either. It surely doesnt want to lose its buffer against Prussia...

The Palatinate doesnt work. Bavaria will then go "And what else do we gain as compensation for Salzburg?" ;)

I thought that Saxony lost 1/3 (or something like that) of its territory to Prussia after the Napoleonic wars, because it had supported Napoleon (or at least didn't fought hard enough against him). My idea was that the same would be true for Bavaria.
In short my idea was this: Prussia gets rewarded for helping to win the war against France by gaining Saxony (and the Rhineland), while both Saxony and Bavaria get punished, because they supported France. Saxony loses Saxony to Prussia, while Bavaria loses the palatine (or Salzburg, but I am looking at the end result of OTL congress of Vienna) to the former ruler of Saxony.
 

Thande

Donor
You could always have a situation where the French win Waterloo but are then crushed by Blucher, so the Prussians get all the credit for beating Boney and therefore are more richly rewarded at the Congress.
 
You could always have a situation where the French win Waterloo but are then crushed by Blucher, so the Prussians get all the credit for beating Boney and therefore are more richly rewarded at the Congress.

But isn't that more or less what happened in OTL anyway? :confused:

Napoleon wasn't exactly loosing (badly) against Wellington, IIRC...
 

Thande

Donor
But isn't that more or less what happened in OTL anyway? :confused:

Napoleon wasn't exactly loosing (badly) against Wellington, IIRC...

It's different if he actually defeats Wellington, marches in triumph into Brussels, meaning all the dignitaries there are forced to flee, and then gets beat by the Prussians.
 
You could always have a situation where the French win Waterloo but are then crushed by Blucher, so the Prussians get all the credit for beating Boney and therefore are more richly rewarded at the Congress.

I asked this question for my timeline (the one in my sig) where Waterloo will be butterflied away, but I can always extend the role of the Prussians in the defeat of Napoleon.
 

General Zod

Banned
I asked this question for my timeline (the one in my sig) where Waterloo will be butterflied away, but I can always extend the role of the Prussians in the defeat of Napoleon.

This seems like a very feasible way to get a more powerful Prussia at the Congress of Vienna. Prussia is pivotal in the defeat of Napoleon, it gets rewarded with Saxony and Rhineland as well, the former King of Saxony is put on some other minor throne.
 
This seems like a very feasible way to get a more powerful Prussia at the Congress of Vienna. Prussia is pivotal in the defeat of Napoleon, it gets rewarded with Saxony and Rhineland as well, the former King of Saxony is put on some other minor throne.
Grand Duke (or some other title) of Alsace-Lorraine/Elsass-Lothringen, maybe?
 
Last edited:

Thande

Donor
Grand Duke (Or some other title) of Alsace-Lorraine/Elsass-Lothringen, maybe?

There wouldn't be a precedent for that. I suppose they could restore the old Duchy of Lorraine (only absorbed by France a few years before the Revolution) and expand it to include Alsace, or something.
 
There wouldn't be a precedent for that. I suppose they could restore the old Duchy of Lorraine (only absorbed by France a few years before the Revolution) and expand it to include Alsace, or something.
Yes, that's what I was afraid of...
They might search for any kind of precedent, however vague, to make it a Kingdom (as to not demote the former King of Saxony)... hm... referencing Lotharingia?
 
Giving the king of Saxony Lorraine (or Lotharingia or whatever the German name is) is a interesting idea. It means I have to change a couple of longterm plans for my timeline, but that's ok. I needed some reason for a French-Prussian/German conflict anyway and this could be it.
It does mean a worse peacedeal for France after the war, but that shouldn't be a problem. You know, I think I'll make France lose French Flanders/Hainaut and Corsica too (and some colonies to Great Britain). That would give France enough reasons for conflicts in the future.
 
Giving the king of Saxony Lorraine (or Lotharingia or whatever the German name is) is a interesting idea.
Lothringen, actually.
Lotharingia is the origin of both the French and German names, and, well, if one is looking for a reason to give the former King of Saxony a title equal in theory, altough mayhap not in practice, referencing to things more then nine hundred years ago could occur...
 

Susano

Banned
Saxony loses Saxony to Prussia, while Bavaria loses the palatine (or Salzburg, but I am looking at the end result of OTL congress of Vienna) to the former ruler of Saxony.
I think Bavaria would rather lose Franconia instead of the Palatinate. Possiby even to Prussia, too, what with the Principalities of Ansbach and Bayreuth...

Lothringen, actually.
Lotharingia is the origin of both the French and German names, and, well, if one is looking for a reason to give the former King of Saxony a title equal in theory, altough mayhap not in practice, referencing to things more then nine hundred years ago could occur...
Actually only English has two names for it depending on historical epoch. In German its just Lothringen. So the title wouldnt be 900 years old...
It certainly could happen, if the Congress decided France is to be punished. Of course, that in itself would be a major alteration from OTL.

I'm pretty sure the Habsburgs will be mighty pissed if anybody but them gets Lorraine.
Why? They pretty much gave it away free of charge in the 18th century anyways... Especially if the Saxon King gets to be Grand-Duke of Lorraine, the Habsburg swill still exclusively be Dukes of Lorraine.
 

General Zod

Banned
The PoD proposed (Nappy decisively crushes Wellington, but later completely loses to Blucher) seems good enough, but I have no idea of how this might be justified, militarly.

Napoleon winning at Waterloo makes France look more dangerous to the British, so they may well greenlight plans for a punitive peace. France loses French Flanders to the United Kingdom of Netherlands and the whole Alsace-Lorraine to the newly-christened Kingdom of Lothringen.

Heroic Prussia is richly rewarded with Rhineland and Saxony.

How is this going to affect German unification and revanchist France ?
 
Top