Protestant Russia

I've heard that protestant nations tended to have higher literacy rates than catholic ones and that literacy was a key factor in industrialization. So what would happen if Russia went protestant, would they be able to industrialize quicker and become an even stronger force?
 
I've heard that protestant nations tended to have higher literacy rates than catholic ones and that literacy was a key factor in industrialization. So what would happen if Russia went protestant, would they be able to industrialize quicker and become an even stronger force?

For a quicker industrialization Russia would need, among other things, an earlier abolishing of a serfdom because it is rather hard to industrialize a country without a pool of easily available workers.
 

kernals12

Banned
I've heard that protestant nations tended to have higher literacy rates than catholic ones and that literacy was a key factor in industrialization. So what would happen if Russia went protestant, would they be able to industrialize quicker and become an even stronger force?
Russia is Orthodox, not Catholic. But, Greece, another orthodox country, apparantly adopted some Protestant reforms under Cyril Lucaris, so it might work. As for how it would help the economy, it's important not to confuse correlation with causation. France and Belgium, both catholic, industrialized as fast as their protestant neighbors.
 
For a quicker industrialization Russia would need, among other things, an earlier abolishing of a serfdom because it is rather hard to industrialize a country without a pool of easily available workers.

Or just a more efficient way of using serfs in factories
 
Or just a more efficient way of using serfs in factories

Had been tried and did not work in a long run. Peter I created the whole serf-based industry and as a result by the early XIX Russia was falling behind the advanced European countries.

To start with, serfs belonged to the nobles (or ennobled entrepreneurs like Demidovs) so there were no free hands for th new capitalist ventures. The noble enterprise owners often did not have necessary knowledge, capital, business qualities and even an interest for modernization and efficiency improvement. OTOH, serf in many cases did not have any incentive to work better because he could not be fired for the bad work and not necessarily rewarded for the good one: why owner would be rewarding his own property?

Not to mention that “orientation toward the West” put the most of Russian enterprises at disadvantage from the very beginning: Western imports had been killing the local manufacturing leaving just few niches like iron production. Which means that the main sources of income had been agricultural products and timber. In other words, the serfs had to work in the fields.
 
The Protestants were a consequence of Catholic corruption primarily in the form of abusing indulgences and the rejection of Papal authority. It doesn't make sense in the context of Orthodoxy which doesn't have any Pope like figure nor uses a legalistic approach to spiritual authority. It's kind of a different ballgame over there.
 
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Russia had Strigolniki and Molokani. But I doubt that any doctrinal Change, were it officially embraces, would have made the difference you seek.
What Russia at some Point lost were Independent towns governed by its artisans and merchants. That is the breeding ground for capitalism (and arguably helped Protestantism somewhat in the West, but that is more doubtful). So, prevent Muscovite autocracy and establish some Sort of Russian Hansa-equivalent, and you might get a society more similar to the West, but if that automatically leads to industrialisation is another matter.
 
Russia to large extent lack the fundament (being Catholics) to convert to Protestantism, and Protestant rulers wasn’t great at force convert Orthodox to Protestantism. What we really need is the Russian Church seeing the early Protestant movement and deciding to seek close cooperation with them (which the early Protestant would very happy to do), and as such becomes inspired by Protestant theology. They don’t necessary need to adopt it wholesale and are pretty unlikely to do so, but Luthers focus on translated Bible, literacy, anti-monasterism and anti-“blingism” would pretty easy things to adopt, which would be revolutionary. Lutheranism could on the other hand set up patriarchies.
 

krieger

Banned
Russia to large extent lack the fundament (being Catholics) to convert to Protestantism, and Protestant rulers wasn’t great at force convert Orthodox to Protestantism. What we really need is the Russian Church seeing the early Protestant movement and deciding to seek close cooperation with them (which the early Protestant would very happy to do), and as such becomes inspired by Protestant theology. They don’t necessary need to adopt it wholesale and are pretty unlikely to do so, but Luthers focus on translated Bible, literacy, anti-monasterism and anti-“blingism” would pretty easy things to adopt, which would be revolutionary. Lutheranism could on the other hand set up patriarchies.

Russia had it's own version of "Protestantism" and it was called the "Judaizing Sect". It was much more radical than Luther was. They rejected sacraments (even baptism) and they tried to bring back Moses's law. And they gained serious popularity in Muscovy. Even the grandson of Ivan III, Dmitry sympathized with them. So if Sophia Paleolog was rendered infertile (so no Vassily III) and Dmitry succeeded the throne, Russia would went even further than Protestant. Although I doubt if it would be THAT good for Russia. Sure, Jewish bankers would come and support Muscovy, but if Judaizing Sect succeeded Muscovy would be more isolated. Ruthenian Orthodoxes would not want anything to do with "weird Jews in Moscow" (OTL they hated them that much that when John III Sobieski agreed to recognize Moscow's sovereignty over Orthodoxes in Commonwealth, the Orthodox hierarchy willingly joined union with Rome). @Jan Olbracht
 
Russia had Strigolniki and Molokani. But I doubt that any doctrinal Change, were it officially embraces, would have made the difference you seek.
What Russia at some Point lost were Independent towns governed by its artisans and merchants. That is the breeding ground for capitalism (and arguably helped Protestantism somewhat in the West, but that is more doubtful). So, prevent Muscovite autocracy and establish some Sort of Russian Hansa-equivalent, and you might get a society more similar to the West, but if that automatically leads to industrialisation is another matter.

Hanseatic model ended with a failure and definitely was not a good example of industrialization. A modern state would not be able to survive as an assembly of the independent towns (even the Netherlands and Switzerland had province/canton level entities), especially one in the complicated geopolitical situation like Russia had: during the most critical centuries it was under a permanent pressure from the West, South and East so it needed an ability to mobilize its military resources fast and effectively. An obvious byproduct was a loss of independence on all social levels: until the reign of Peter III nobility and even aristocracy did not have any additional legal protection.

It can be argued that centralization process went too far and that greater rights in the terms of a self administration would be beneficial (in one form or another they did exist) but, close to the point of OP, by a number of reasons Russian Orthodoxy advocated isolationism with all obvious negative impacts. OTOH when the problems with isolationism became too obvious, Russia got more friendly toward Protestantism then to Catholicism. Not that this resulted in a speedy industrialization.
 
Well, you would need a Catholic Russia for that, but the butterflies would be so huge that it would be unrecognizable anyway, not to mention that the Reformation might not even happen.

On a side note: there are about zero Catholic Russia timelines and I would love to read one.
 
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This. Catholic->Lutheran Novgorod sounds plausible to me.
Not too much: even if it was in close trade relations with Hanseatic League, contact with the foreigners were regulated and an Orthodox Bishop of Novgorod was a member of the ruling body. Anyway, by the time Protestantism became a meaningful force in Germany, Novgorod ceased to be an independent entity.

There was a brief period when Novgorod was occupied by Sweden (during the ToT) but it was too late for a conversion: the population was firmly Orthodox and the Swedes had neither resources nor wish to enforce a conversion and to deal with the resulting revolt. Anyway, it does not look like Sweden considered situation as a permanent possession.
 
On a side note: there are about zero Catholic Russia timelines and I would love to read one.

About the only way I can see this happening is a near ASB degree of success for the Latin Empire that feeds Western European influence up into the Russians during the first few centuries of the second millenium, when the Christianity was still a little more flexable in Russia and so a move from the Greek to the Latin rite might still be viable. You basically need an early Greek/Eastern Rite political extinction.
 
Not too much: even if it was in close trade relations with Hanseatic League, contact with the foreigners were regulated and an Orthodox Bishop of Novgorod was a member of the ruling body. Anyway, by the time Protestantism became a meaningful force in Germany, Novgorod ceased to be an independent entity.

There was a brief period when Novgorod was occupied by Sweden (during the ToT) but it was too late for a conversion: the population was firmly Orthodox and the Swedes had neither resources nor wish to enforce a conversion and to deal with the resulting revolt. Anyway, it does not look like Sweden considered situation as a permanent possession.
But if Rus, or even parts of Rus converted to Catholicism instead of Orthodoxy (perhaps in a world where centralized rule from Kiev is not as strong as OTL), I could see them potentially converting to Lutheranism down the line.
 
Well, you would need a Catholic Russia for that, but the butterflies would be so huge that it would be unrecognizable anyway, not to mention that the Reformation might not even happen.

On a side note: there are about zero Catholic Russia timelines and I would love to read one.

Actually, in the practical terms the changes in pre- and post-Mongolian period would not be too big. The main difference would be an absence of ‘ideological isolationism’ in the XV - mid-XVII centuries with a possible minimization of a technological (and not only) backwardness.

Catholic vs. Protestant issues of a later period could be an interesting twist: in OTL the main relations in the terms of trade and know how had been with the Protestant states (England/Britain, Netherlands, Germany) while the Catholic PLC was the main enemy all the way to the late XVII.
 
Not too much: even if it was in close trade relations with Hanseatic League, contact with the foreigners were regulated and an Orthodox Bishop of Novgorod was a member of the ruling body. Anyway, by the time Protestantism became a meaningful force in Germany, Novgorod ceased to be an independent entity.
My reading was that this would be happening in the 9th or 10th centuries, that is that Novgorod would be converting to Catholicism instead of Orthodoxy, and well before the Hanseatic League came into being.
 
But if Rus, or even parts of Rus converted to Catholicism instead of Orthodoxy (perhaps in a world where centralized rule from Kiev is not as strong as OTL), I could see them potentially converting to Lutheranism down the line.

Centralized rule from Kiev never was strong and it ceased to exist even formally in the late XII. There was a potential for official acceptance of Catholicism in Princeton of Galitz during the reign of Prince Daniel but the schema did not work out because the Pope could not deliver any help against the Mongols.

In the parts of ‘Rus’ that fell into the Lithuanian/Polish jurisdiction a sizable part of nobility did convert into Catholicism and then Protestantism.
 
Centralized rule from Kiev never was strong and it ceased to exist even formally in the late XII.
I know this. The era I am looking at particularly is when Rus formally converted to Orthodox Christianity around the 10th century. The point I'm trying to make is that Novgorod could have converted to Catholicism while the more southerly parts converted to Orthodoxy. This could have happened as a result of a family dispute where one ruler converts to Orthodoxy while a brother or other such rival claimant converts to Catholicism. This results in the division of Rus along religious lines into the High Middle Ages. Thus, by the time of the Reformation, northern Russia has been thoroughly Catholic for centuries. With Novgorod's strong ties to the Baltic, conversion to Lutheranism would not be outside the realm of possibility.
 
I know this. The era I am looking at particularly is when Rus formally converted to Orthodox Christianity around the 10th century. The point I'm trying to make is that Novgorod could have converted to Catholicism while the more southerly parts converted to Orthodoxy. This could have happened as a result of a family dispute where one ruler converts to Orthodoxy while a brother or other such rival claimant converts to Catholicism. This results in the division of Rus along religious lines into the High Middle Ages. Thus, by the time of the Reformation, northern Russia has been thoroughly Catholic for centuries. With Novgorod's strong ties to the Baltic, conversion to Lutheranism would not be outside the realm of possibility.

Theoretically possible.

OTOH, at the time of conversion Vladimir did not have any surviving competitors (IIRC) and Novgorod had been converted by force by Vlad’s representatives sent there (with a military backup).

Of course, the main problem within your scenario would be for Novgorod to retain its faith over the following centuries: it had strong ties to the Baltic entities but it also depended upon the good produced in the rest of the Russian lands, especially, Central Russia. It’s military power was quite limited and, being a Catholic state, it would have difficulties with getting extra military power (princes with their bands), which was more handy in the endless border wars than Novgorodian militia: practically all available OTL candidates were from the rest of Russia or from the Lithuanian/Belarusian princedoms (before the Polish - Lithuanian union).
 
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