Protestant Reformation in Scadinavia

I've been doing some reading on the Protestant Reformation, and especially in the north, it seemed occurred rather the time of the English \, Luther's writings has decimilated through Europe since 1517, widely popular in Germany and even read amongst the FRench aristocracy, where such call for reforms were causing Francois I headaches. Indeed,the Vasa's reforming the church seems almost accidental: they were no way ending the Kalmar Union on religious principals, althoug hthe Pope definitely made a wrong move in refusing his clerical appointment for vacant dioceses. Indeed, it was the Danish King who suggested such a break, having done so himself through extensive contacts with the Wittemberg theological community.

It just seems like Sweden was continuously torn beween the two religious camps. The Vasa certainly had an unhinged king in the person of Erik XIV, but it seems that it was John III who was torn on the issue of religion. During the time of his marriage to his first wife, Catherine Jagiellon, he had clear Catholic sympathies, publishing a Red Book in an attempt to fuse the two differing faiths by creating a sort of Swedish Anglicanism with Catholic rituals in worship.

He also allowed remaining convents to begin receiving notices again: prior to this, monesteries were not dissolved in Sweden, but rather accepted no new recruits (except for the prestigious Vadstena MOnestery). Younger members were more apt to leave before the change in the law, but especially men, given that they could translate their time in a monastery into a career as a doctor, teacher, or a pastor. Woman had no choice but to marry if they left.

Now, my sort of general question is: what was the state of Catholicism in Sweden in the 17th century (before the reign of Charles IX)? Where there significant Catholic hold outs? John and his son Sigismund been less bumbling, might we have seen some sort of toleration with a Catholic dynasty reigning over Sweden (leaving Poland pit pf the situation). Was John's Red Book a realistic proposition to reform the Swedish Church (perhaps creating a Gallican Church like seen in France?)

Third, who might be a good wife for an ALT. Swedish King who may have be easily influenced or have views lik with pro-Catholic views (they don't have to be extreme!)? I don't need any names, but dynasties that were probably floating around in the period. I can find the name myself in my homemade chart,

Any duerther quip and comments are welcome. ;)
 
I've been doing some reading on the Protestant Reformation, and especially in the north, it seemed occurred rather the time of the English \, Luther's writings has decimilated through Europe since 1517, widely popular in Germany and even read amongst the FRench aristocracy, where such call for reforms were causing Francois I headaches. Indeed,the Vasa's reforming the church seems almost accidental: they were no way ending the Kalmar Union on religious principals, althoug hthe Pope definitely made a wrong move in refusing his clerical appointment for vacant dioceses. Indeed, it was the Danish King who suggested such a break, having done so himself through extensive contacts with the Wittemberg theological community.

It just seems like Sweden was continuously torn beween the two religious camps. The Vasa certainly had an unhinged king in the person of Erik XIV, but it seems that it was John III who was torn on the issue of religion. During the time of his marriage to his first wife, Catherine Jagiellon, he had clear Catholic sympathies, publishing a Red Book in an attempt to fuse the two differing faiths by creating a sort of Swedish Anglicanism with Catholic rituals in worship.

He also allowed remaining convents to begin receiving notices again: prior to this, monesteries were not dissolved in Sweden, but rather accepted no new recruits (except for the prestigious Vadstena MOnestery). Younger members were more apt to leave before the change in the law, but especially men, given that they could translate their time in a monastery into a career as a doctor, teacher, or a pastor. Woman had no choice but to marry if they left.

Now, my sort of general question is: what was the state of Catholicism in Sweden in the 17th century (before the reign of Charles IX)? Where there significant Catholic hold outs? John and his son Sigismund been less bumbling, might we have seen some sort of toleration with a Catholic dynasty reigning over Sweden (leaving Poland pit pf the situation). Was John's Red Book a realistic proposition to reform the Swedish Church (perhaps creating a Gallican Church like seen in France?)

Third, who might be a good wife for an ALT. Swedish King who may have be easily influenced or have views lik with pro-Catholic views (they don't have to be extreme!)? I don't need any names, but dynasties that were probably floating around in the period. I can find the name myself in my homemade chart,

Any duerther quip and comments are welcome. ;)

Oh dear me... I remember a time back when I was like 12 years old and was an expert on Swedish history, having read Herman Lindqvist's tomes on the matter, and could have given you a very extensive answer on this question (yet wouldn't be able to answer simple questions such as "has there ever been a revolution in France?"). Now my memory is much blurry.

Unless I am mistaken, however, King Gustav (I) Vasa suffered quite a few rebellions over his introduction of protestantism. If King Henry VIII in England was driven by lust in forming the Anglican Church, then Gustav Vasa was driven by greed in forming the Swedish. After having taken power, the crown was tremendously indebted to the Hanseatic League. Then all of a sudden, the court discovered a theological movement that said that the Church belonged to the people, not the Pope, and since the King ruled the people, that meant that the Church and all its wealth belonged to the king. Consequently, we had the Reduction, in which much of the Churches' properties were confiscated by the Crown, and it didn't stop there: much of the decorative gold and silver in the churches were taken down and sent to Stockholm to be melted down, chandeliers, crucifixes, and even church bells! All of it was the King's now. The Churches pretty much went puritan overnight to pay off the national debt (and thereafter fill the royal coffers). And of course, many were furious. Especially the Dalkarlar (people from the province Dalarna) who had pretty much been leading the front in restoring Swedish independence from the Kalmar Union and making the petty noble Gustav Eriksson king. And there were rebellions. Dalupproren and Dackefejden were two of the greatest rebellions, the first one actually caused by the aforementioned Dalkarlar. I don't remember how close they actually came to threaten King Gustav's rule, but I think that the struggle cannot be described as being anything less than tantamount to outright civil war.

Long story short, the Reformation in Swedish was largely directed from Stockholm and Uppsala with the population very, very reluctantly following after.
 
Oh dear me... I remember a time back when I was like 12 years old and was an expert on Swedish history, having read Herman Lindqvist's tomes on the matter, and could have given you a very extensive answer on this question (yet wouldn't be able to answer simple questions such as "has there ever been a revolution in France?"). Now my memory is much blurry.

Unless I am mistaken, however, King Gustav (I) Vasa suffered quite a few rebellions over his introduction of protestantism. If King Henry VIII in England was driven by lust in forming the Anglican Church, then Gustav Vasa was driven by greed in forming the Swedish. After having taken power, the crown was tremendously indebted to the Hanseatic League. Then all of a sudden, the court discovered a theological movement that said that the Church belonged to the people, not the Pope, and since the King ruled the people, that meant that the Church and all its wealth belonged to the king. Consequently, we had the Reduction, in which much of the Churches' properties were confiscated by the Crown, and it didn't stop there: much of the decorative gold and silver in the churches were taken down and sent to Stockholm to be melted down, chandeliers, crucifixes, and even church bells! All of it was the King's now. The Churches pretty much went puritan overnight to pay off the national debt (and thereafter fill the royal coffers). And of course, many were furious. Especially the Dalkarlar (people from the province Dalarna) who had pretty much been leading the front in restoring Swedish independence from the Kalmar Union and making the petty noble Gustav Eriksson king. And there were rebellions. Dalupproren and Dackefejden were two of the greatest rebellions, the first one actually caused by the aforementioned Dalkarlar. I don't remember how close they actually came to threaten King Gustav's rule, but I think that the struggle cannot be described as being anything less than tantamount to outright civil war.

Long story short, the Reformation in Swedish was largely directed from Stockholm and Uppsala with the population very, very reluctantly following after.

This is very interesting info: much as in England, where Henry VIII led his reform from the top? Not saying he didn't have advisers who supported him, but that it was definitely the government who supported the break and not common people. In Sweden especially, it seems Catholicism remained popular until the mid and even late 17th century. Is this true> Charkes IX's fears of his cousin seem almost wholly made up snd that this branch of the Vasa was no way actively threatening the established order. I'm merely looking at ways to make Sweden more interesting,and the time of the Vasa dies seem a good period, especially if it effects the ultimate religious outlook. Not sure how possible it'd be, but to see a semi-Catholic Sweden surrounded by Lutherans who be funny indeed, The big issue though, is all the Hanseatic debt. That church land makes a very tempting target to use.
 
This is very interesting info: much as in England, where Henry VIII led his reform from the top? Not saying he didn't have advisers who supported him, but that it was definitely the government who supported the break and not common people. In Sweden especially, it seems Catholicism remained popular until the mid and even late 17th century. Is this true> Charkes IX's fears of his cousin seem almost wholly made up snd that this branch of the Vasa was no way actively threatening the established order. I'm merely looking at ways to make Sweden more interesting,and the time of the Vasa dies seem a good period, especially if it effects the ultimate religious outlook. Not sure how possible it'd be, but to see a semi-Catholic Sweden surrounded by Lutherans who be funny indeed, The big issue though, is all the Hanseatic debt. That church land makes a very tempting target to use.

The thing about Sweden and religion is that we know very well how the religious currents looked on the top. Priest-kings in the Old Norse kingdoms into the 12th century, whereafter very devout Catholicism into the 16th century and thereafter nigh Puritan Protestantism until the old order dissolved as a class in the 19th and 20th centuries. How it looked at the bottom. Hard to tell. We have found artifacts dating from as late as the 17th century with Runic inscriptions on them (Asatru solar calendars and stuff) and the old folk magic and superstitions from the Viking religion survived well into the 19th century. Nonetheless, I think I am in the right when I say that both times that Sweden radically changed her religion (at the end of the Viking Age and during the Reformation) it was forcefully imposed by the very top, with the majority being very unhappy about it.
 
While the majority of the people were unhappy about switching religion, they were not unhappy enough to actually revolt over it - the revolts were partially due to an impressive tradition of revolts since the Engelbrekt rising in 1434 and partially due to resistance to Gustav Eriksson (Wasa)'s centralisation. People were used to minding their own business, having their rights respected and killing whatever tax collector who tried to upset this. Gustav I faced lots of revolts early in his reign.

Swedish (and Kalmar Union) Kings pretty much appointed bishops and priests as they wanted without Rome's consent - this was an issue sometimes used in complaints and threats, and even as casus belli at times, but in reality, Rome cared little about Sweden and Sweden cared little about Rome. Sweden was a far-off, sparsely populated, poor and uninfluential part of the christian world.

One must also calculate the influence in Rome. The French King, the Holy Roman Emperor and others had high influence - with cardinals and sometimes even popes in their pocket, allowing them to influence church policies. They had an investment to protect which Swedish monarchs did not - thus switching from and keeping from catholicism was far easier for them.

It is possible that a Swedish King might be catholic, but by the time of Erik XIV, catholic had become equal to foreign, and foreign was since the 14th century someone who would not respect peasant rights, try to turn the free farmers into continental serfs. It was easy for local strongmen to play on this fear to get the support against a catholic ruler.
 
Oh dear me... I remember a time back when I was like 12 years old and was an expert on Swedish history, having read Herman Lindqvist's tomes on the matter, and could have given you a very extensive answer on this question (yet wouldn't be able to answer simple questions such as "has there ever been a revolution in France?"). Now my memory is much blurry.

Unless I am mistaken, however, King Gustav (I) Vasa suffered quite a few rebellions over his introduction of protestantism. If King Henry VIII in England was driven by lust in forming the Anglican Church, then Gustav Vasa was driven by greed in forming the Swedish. After having taken power, the crown was tremendously indebted to the Hanseatic League. Then all of a sudden, the court discovered a theological movement that said that the Church belonged to the people, not the Pope, and since the King ruled the people, that meant that the Church and all its wealth belonged to the king. Consequently, we had the Reduction, in which much of the Churches' properties were confiscated by the Crown, and it didn't stop there: much of the decorative gold and silver in the churches were taken down and sent to Stockholm to be melted down, chandeliers, crucifixes, and even church bells! All of it was the King's now. The Churches pretty much went puritan overnight to pay off the national debt (and thereafter fill the royal coffers). And of course, many were furious. Especially the Dalkarlar (people from the province Dalarna) who had pretty much been leading the front in restoring Swedish independence from the Kalmar Union and making the petty noble Gustav Eriksson king. And there were rebellions. Dalupproren and Dackefejden were two of the greatest rebellions, the first one actually caused by the aforementioned Dalkarlar. I don't remember how close they actually came to threaten King Gustav's rule, but I think that the struggle cannot be described as being anything less than tantamount to outright civil war.

Long story short, the Reformation in Swedish was largely directed from Stockholm and Uppsala with the population very, very reluctantly following after.


Indeed, Gustav had some trouble securing his throne. He also ran into trouble with the Papacy as by the the time of his coronation there was essentially no heirarchy snd Gustav wanted to fill it with his own people. Dealing with the rising Protestant heresies in Germany, the Pope wasn't keen to let Gustav have afree hand. which seems kind of odd given that the King of Denmark, Christian III, had been Luheran and was later deposed by his more religiously conservative uncle. If anything, Christian III's advice may have pushed Gustav Vasa further towards breaking in Rome.

While the majority of the people were unhappy about switching religion, they were not unhappy enough to actually revolt over it - the revolts were partially due to an impressive tradition of revolts since the Engelbrekt rising in 1434 and partially due to resistance to Gustav Eriksson (Wasa)'s centralisation. People were used to minding their own business, having their rights respected and killing whatever tax collector who tried to upset this. Gustav I faced lots of revolts early in his reign.

Swedish (and Kalmar Union) Kings pretty much appointed bishops and priests as they wanted without Rome's consent - this was an issue sometimes used in complaints and threats, and even as casus belli at times, but in reality, Rome cared little about Sweden and Sweden cared little about Rome. Sweden was a far-off, sparsely populated, poor and uninfluential part of the christian world.

One must also calculate the influence in Rome. The French King, the Holy Roman Emperor and others had high influence - with cardinals and sometimes even popes in their pocket, allowing them to influence church policies. They had an investment to protect which Swedish monarchs did not - thus switching from and keeping from catholicism was far easier for them.

It is possible that a Swedish King might be catholic, but by the time of Erik XIV, catholic had become equal to foreign, and foreign was since the 14th century someone who would not respect peasant rights, try to turn the free farmers into continental serfs. It was easy for local strongmen to play on this fear to get the support against a catholic ruler.

I agree the Swedes had a history of political revolt and chaffing under the Kalmar Union, but it strikes me as peculiar that none had any kind of religious slant. Even as late as Gustav Vasa's rebellion, it was a civil war against the Danes, rather than a religious revolution. Unless I'm gravely mistake (and I could be), Sweden had no history of anti-Catholikc movements fusing with hatred of the Kalmar Union, ala the English proto-Protestants. What I seem to gather is the 17th century was a very confusing time, religious, and the people weren't swayed once one way or another. Gustav Vasa's religious agenda gained popularity as it offered freedom and independence from Rome, but it seems like the native church was a sparse replacement.

Was Catholicism really considered so foreign? Not arguing with the idea, but while it certainly has the Pontiff in Rome, I'm not sure how foreign it could be be, aside from the fact it was preached in Latin, not the venacular. Did many common people understand thre venacula> There's also the ties that John had built with the Jagiellons; his Catholic Queen was no super star, but she didn't seem hated, I wonder if a foreign, Protestant wife, say German or so might seem just as strange. Catholicism was no doubt seen as such by the en English, esp when they thought it being bought by the state Galleons of their husbands new king, Philip. The English were also extremely xenophobic.
 
Top