Protestant Poland: how does this affect Polish culture?

If Poland became a Protestant nation, what would be the effects on Polish culture? Would it have more of a work ethic and lower tolerance of corruption? Or is the whole religious effect on national culture a load of bunkum, and there would be no real change?
 
Hello,

That's a very interesting question, sort of depends on point of departure, how early and how big. Early enough, the butterflies would be enormous.

For example, if the Prussian Homage in 1525 sees the Ducal Prussia not just secularised, but outright incorporated into the Commonwealth, making it not "of both", but "of three nations". It would weaken Catholicism and Vatican influence something fierce, paving the way to a national church of Poland with the king as it's head (it was a project for a time...).

Weaker Catholicism would allow for a better situation of Eastern Orthodox Church, avoiding a lot of grief in (today's) Ukraine, possibly leading to a Commonwealth of Four Nations.
 
Getting Poland to be Protestant would have some other interesting implications, though. As I recall, in the 16th and 17th Centuries, rather a lot of Polish nobles and wealthy converted to Protestantism (mostly Calvinist/Zwinglist "Reformed" strains, though Lutheranism was popular with German-influenced populations in the north), but Poland's very free religious policies meant that the change never really got communicated to the peasantry. Later, a couple very Catholic kings and a wake of reactionary-ism after the Deluge killed this off.

So, the very act of Poland becoming Protestant would probably require either stronger Germanization, more settling of expelled Protestant groups (such as the Mennonites), or less religious freedom at some point (to better force the peasants to accept the creed). Well, that, or getting Sigismund III to be less Catholic (or side-step him entirely, which would have all kinds of butterflies)
 
If Poland became a Protestant nation, what would be the effects on Polish culture? Would it have more of a work ethic and lower tolerance of corruption? Or is the whole religious effect on national culture a load of bunkum, and there would be no real change?

You see successful protestant countries, I see successful countries on isolated penninsulas, islands and de facto island continents. Exchange the places of Britain and Poland, and catholic work ethic will amaze the world as one Catholic power dominates the seas while another rules the continent.
 
The protestant work ethic is somewhat of a myth. Poland would not suddenly turn into a wealthy merchant nation with colonies all over the world if it turns protestant. That said a protestant Poland would lead to an interesting situation and could lead to interesting butterflies. Since Poland basicly was positioned into a major protestant area (northern Germany, Scandinavia) it might be easier to create stronger alliances (for example by marriage) in that region, making it more stable and more influential.
 
You see successful protestant countries, I see successful countries on isolated penninsulas, islands and de facto island continents. Exchange the places of Britain and Poland, and catholic work ethic will amaze the world as one Catholic power dominates the seas while another rules the continent.

How isolated are the Netherlands and German states?
 
How isolated are the Netherlands and German states?

Germany is half Catholic and just happens to have a tremendous demographic advantage. Which leaves us with the Netherlands. One single country, not much of a basis for statistical inferences.
 
Personaly I believe that the idea of a superior protestant work ethic comes from the people who are most attracted to protestantism. Basicly in the late middle ages the catholic church was an extreme conservative and suppressive organisation and of course incredibly corrupt. The reformation was a reaction of that. The people most attracted to it were the people who wanted more freedom both in their actions as well as the way of thinking. Basicly this were the lower nobility and the rising bourgeoisie, basicly the richer merchants. Basicly the people who wanted more freedom from both the church as the upper nobility. So it is not that protestantism caused a superior work ethic, but that people who already got that work ethic were attracted to protestantism. So if Poland turns protestant it wouldn't change much in that regard.
 
They probably get along even less well with their neighbours to the East.

And possibly better with their neighbour in the West. The Polish subjects of Prussia being Protestants would mitigate much tensions IMHO. We may also see larger assimilation/integration without the strong force of religion keeping the Prussian-Germans and the Prussian-Polish appart.

Considering Protestant work ethics I always thought of it more in line of a Protestant tendency toward austerity and frugality, which is not really a Catholic thing.
 
If Poland goes Protestant, the more zealous Catholic Poles might migrate to Silesia and revive the Polish culture there causing a Polish Catholic identity to be the norm there....it would be a Polish equivalent to the Flemish identity.
 
The most immediate effect would be for the Polish Crown to both take ownership of church land and control of the church itself. I honestly don't know what percentage of land the Polish church owned, but every little bit would increase the crown's income, and thus its power vs. the nobility and sejm.

Also, though I generally agree with the above posters that the "Protestant Work Ethic" is overblown, Protestantism did encourage common people to personally read and attempt to understand scripture. Since one has to be able to read in order to do this, Protestant countries tended to prioritize education more than Catholic ones, and Protestant churches often tried to give common people some basic form of education. Related, since the church will be under crown control, the crown will have to have some method of giving clerics the higher education needed for their jobs, which probably translates into greater support for Poland's universities. This in turn might help to give the bourgeoisie/lower nobility more opportunities for higher education, and make it easier for the crown to establish an educated civil service.

As previously mentioned, relations with Prussia are likely to be better. I don't know if this will result in a "Polish-Lithuanian-Prussian" commonwealth, but I think we'd see more Prussians (and other Protestant Germans) at court in Warsaw, resulting in both more German influence on Poland and the Prussians identifying more with the Polish state.

Taken together, I think the above three factors will most likely lead to a more centralized government, with the able to exert more influence vs. the Sejm, possibly turning Poland into a centralized, hereditary monarchy. 19th century Poland might look a lot like 19th century Prussia-a highly centralized state with a strong civil service and military, dominated by its conservative nobility.

As to how Ukrainians/Belarussians do, historically Eastern Orthodox and Protestants tended to have a fairly good relationship. Russia generally treated Protestant minorities within its borders much better than Catholic ones, and Protestants didn't see Eastern Orthodox as "the enemy", at least to the extent Catholics occupied that role. On the other hand, Luther and Calvin both encouraged missionary work to all peoples in their native language, so the state church is likely to produce Ukrainian and Belarussian translations of the Bible, and make at least some effort to convert Ukrainians and Belarussians. Since any resultant churches will be Ukrainian/Belarussian speaking, they could still become the centers of nationalist movements, and Protestant Ukrainians might have an influence remenescant of Greek Catholic Ukrainians IOTL.

In the foreign relations department, Poland will obviously be much closer to the other Protestant countries in Germany and Scandinavia. In particular, I can see a long-lasting Polish-Swedish alliance once Russia starts becoming powerful.
 
Was thinking of an actual POD for this today...

Lets give Sigismund III a different personality/upbringing/whatever-he's still Catholic, but much less devout, and somewhat more politically astute. He still gets elected king of Poland, and after becoming king of Sweden, divides his time between the two realms. Sometime after 1600, Sigismund realizes his position in Sweden is weakening and, in order to prevent himself from being overthrown (like he was OTL) decides to convert to Lutheranism. This, however, angers much of the Catholic Polish nobility, who decide to rebel against Sigismund and convince Austria to help them. Sigismund defeats the rebellion with the help of Swedish troops and proceeds to exile/execute the involved rebels, with their property seized and either absorbed into the crown lands or redistributed to more loyal Protestant noblemen.

The rest of Sigismund's reign sees several more Austrian attempts to remove him with the aid of Catholic noblemen, culminating in a "Polish Civil War" that becomes a theater of the alt Thirty Years War. Although Poland's religious freedom laws remain on the books, Sigsmund and his successors come to see Catholicism as an inherently subversive force-Catholic orders like the Jesuits are banned, the state supports Protestants in seizing Catholic churches, and the Polish Catholic hierarchy comes under so much pressure it largely ceases to operate. By 1700, Poland is majority Protestant.
 

phatmaus

Banned
If Poland became a Protestant nation, what would be the effects on Polish culture? Would it have more of a work ethic and lower tolerance of corruption? Or is the whole religious effect on national culture a load of bunkum, and there would be no real change?

The only scientific study that I can remember off-hand was done in New York and found that Protestants had a statistically significant, controlling for all other factors, higher incidence of depression. The authors hypothesised that because Catholics had the practice of confession, they were much less likely to have their sins, real or imagined, gnaw away at them like Protestants.

So yes, religion does have an effect on culture.
 
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