Protect & Survive - The Visitors

Thanks Stodge. Enjoying this - I find it quite similar to the original P&S in style, particularly in that it is well written and reads very well.

I can't help sympathising with JN1's point about where it sits with the established P&S canon though. When I initially read your first entry I read it as the local representatives of the government collapsed and that the "toe" end of Cornwall had to fend for itself - a distinct possibility given it's isolation today, never mind in the world of P&S. Launceston and St Austell in this world would be distant from St Ives, never mind Portsmouth.

Thanks for alluding to "No illuminations" in the last update, BTW. My personal take on canon in writing "No illuminations" is to never stray ahead in time than the original timeline, although I think DrakonFinn's take on the future works very well.

Other than that, this is a welcome addition to P&S. If people want cheering up, have a wander into Trink on Google StreetView. It's a gorgeous summer's day and you're greeted by a garden of thirsty farmers enjoying a drink and waving at the camera. A world away from P&S...

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=trink,+cornwall&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:eek:fficial&client=firefox-a&channel=np&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=X&ei=EmXaT5zMG4fg8APz8aXaBA&ved=0CEoQ_AUoAg
 
Looking for a Trink...

Thanks for the kind word, Will.

Yes, good spot on Trink but the map location is nearer Cripplesease - Trink is on the road between Cripplesease and Lelant Downs. The road is a very narrow single-track route which makes it easily blockable and defensible.

The other way into Trink is across the fields from Nancledra or Carbis Bay via Nance. It's not a place that the unfamiliar will find easily and it's taken the Army three weeks to find them.
 
The Visitors - Part the Fifth

Apologies for the delay - a busy life - but here we go:

The lorry contained half a dozen soldiers who said they were from “Western Command” and reported to the seat of Regional Government for the South-West though no one seemed quite to know where it was or who was in charge.

Michael’s father had told him later of the tense meeting between the villagers and the Second Lieutenant in charge. The other soldiers fanned out through the village but said little. Michael remembered the face of one of the young men that day – he had killed, of that Michael had no doubt, but he too was bereaved. He was a shell, barely holding on to his humanity in the face of a world in turmoil and torment.

The meeting lasted an hour – the soldiers and the villagers emerged tense but in good humour. The officer called the rest of his group together and they moved out.

Michael’s father had called their group together in their house. He had told them that much of what the hotelier had told them in the days following the attack was true. London was gone – most of the main cities and towns had been devastated. Millions were dead but there was still a functioning Government and authority – Portsmouth had inexplicably survived and the seat of Government was there with William Whitelaw as the Prime Minister.

Michael remembered Woods asking about the Royal Family – Michael’s father had no answer. Michael himself had asked whether there was still a war – his father had replied that the soldiers had said the fighting worldwide had ended, there was some kind of truce between what was left of NATO and the remnants of the Warsaw Pact.

The soldiers had wanted to know about food stocks and had been firm in asserting the authority of the Regional Government.

They had spoken of the destruction of the town and the hundreds of bodies in the streets in the final orgy of violence and had warned against going back. They had mentioned disorganised bands of people roaming the countryside and had advised caution and vigilance. Michael’s father had told them they had not mentioned the patrols of the local villagers. The officer claimed they could restore law and order and there was no need for vigilantes.

On food, the villagers said they had enough but needed seed potatoes and other products for the year’s planting. The Officer seemed pleased about the food and had promised to “do what we could” about the seeds and had recognised the importance of the next year’s planting.

“How were you living?” Adara interrupted earning yet another silent rebuke from Paul.

“What do you mean, how were we living?” asked Michael.

“Well, I mean, cooking, washing, working, things like that” said Adara.

Michael tried to remember the early days at Trink. There was food to eat, though plain and repetitive. They would all eat together in the village hall – after breakfast, it would be out to the fields to prepare the ground for planting. Fuel was being rationed – no one knew if there would be any more petrol or oil so the machinery was used sparingly. The fields were worked by hand – it was hard labour and within a few days, some of the older people were suffering.

For the men, the only relief came from a turn on the security patrol which went round the village every hour or so. If the odd person or group got too close, the threat of a shotgun soon chased them off. There were also the foraging parties – the lake up at Nance provided some fish and the local woods some roots and other bits and pieces. The foraging was dangerous and soon got more so as other supplies of food began to run out.

There was a small group up at Trencrom Hill but Lelant Downs had been abandoned – the homes afforded little in the way of food but had been good for fuel – wood and in a couple of cases, some oil. The night patrols were the worst but with people not eating well, there were soon very few moving at night and within a few weeks, the night patrol had become easier than the day patrols,

There were communal washing facilities – basic but water could be heated. It wasn’t luxury by any means but better than the vast majority of people in the British Isles endured in the weeks after the Exchange.

The military patrols initially came by quite regularly – a couple of times each week. They had brought some seed potatoes and other crops which were eagerly planted and once brought some oil which was rewarded with a hot meal eagerly accepted by the Army.

The weather though had not improved – it would be a very long winter and late spring. Frosts in May were unheard of in that part of Cornwall but the ground was often frozen and the new crops withered. Michael knew that the accumulated debris of hundreds of nuclear blasts was up in the atmosphere and had created a cloud of dust which was cooling the world. He prayed every night – something he had never done before the Exchange.

Mercifully, apart from a couple of occasions, they had avoided significant radiation. On days with the wind in the east, they stayed indoors as much as possible – the air, for all they knew, still carried molecules of London, Exeter or Plymouth.

The spring was late and the summer short and by July, four months after the Exchange, the group at Trink was beginning to struggle. Four of the elderly women had perished during the long winter and three others had taken their own lives.

One night, not long after Midsummer, Woods’ son and some others had gone on a foraging trip toward Nancledra but had never returned. The night guards said they had heard shooting in the pre-dawn light but had seen nothing.

Woods and some of the others had gone the next day to try and find what had happened. They had found Woods’ son hanging from a tree while the others had been shot and, though it was not widely mentioned until later, partially eaten.

“Cannibals?” interrupted Paul.

“I’m afraid so, “replied Michael, “some people had got so desperate they had resorted to killing other human beings for food. I can understand it. Everything that had happened – there were those who had been psychologically damaged far more than being physically damaged. They simply couldn’t cope with the world as it had become.”

“Cannibalism is the ultimate sin – we are taught that,” said Adara as if by rote.

“Yes, “replied Michael, “but don’t they also say judge not lest ye be judged. It’s easy for us today to condemn but in those weeks and months after the war, it was so different. There were too many people chasing too few resources and that was before the plagues.”

“Look, this isn’t easy for me to talk about, “said Michael suddenly, “can we have a break?”

Michael swept out of the living room and up the stairs to his own room. He dared not admit it but he had come far too close to breaking that most ultimate of taboos himself. The death of Woods’ son had shattered their group – the woman had been inconsolable for days and had tried to take her own life. Michael remembered how both he and the Goddard girl had found her after she had eaten the berries and had nursed her back to health. In that time, Michael realised, he had formed an emotional bond with them both and that would be with him through the dark days ahead.

Woods himself had gone mad with grief and about a fortnight later had blown his brains out with a shotgun. He had been buried on the hillside next to his son. The hotelier’s wife had meanwhile drawn closer to Gus, a widower whose wife had died five or so years earlier. That new partnership was a blessing as it made Michael’s group a key part of the village but it didn’t alter the fact that the food supply was running low.

The summer had finally come – late and timid but there were signs of recovery after the months of cold and darkness. Some crops, potatoes, oats and barley – did grow and even a few vegetables in one area set aside as a form of greenhouse.

Michael had always suspected that the death of Woods’ son had been more than had been first assumed and after some weeks, tales began to be heard from other travellers of mysterious deaths in the night. The night guards would hear shots in the distance and one morning a body was found near Trink, a woman, emaciated but otherwise healthy. Her body was riddled with bullets and Michael guessed the real culprits weren’t brigands but soldiers.

The military had continued their visits but they had become more infrequent as the year went on and the soldiers rougher and less tolerant. Michael had spoken to Gus and Gus came to understand that the Army were no longer the trustworthy guardians. Indeed, the soldiers came one day and took food and a couple of sheep at gunpoint. Cyril protested only to find himself staring down the barrel of a gun. In that moment, Michael recalled, we all realised the Army were the enemy.

Michael had recovered his composure and returned downstairs to see Paul and Adara sitting in the gathering gloom with the candles lit and the broth poured.

“Do you wish to continue, sir?” asked Paul respectfully.

“For a while longer, “replied Michael, “there’s still much to cover and I don’t want to keep you here too late tomorrow. Mary will be expecting you back well before sundown.”

There was a knock at the door and Bob entered without invitation.

“Is all well here, Michael?” he asked.

“Yes, my friend. We’ll be retiring soon. It’s an early start tomorrow. Could you thank Crowther for the fish for me, please?” said Michael.

“Very well, “replied Robert. “Peace to you all.” He turned and left without waiting for any salutation. Perhaps he will tell the Peacekeeper Superior about all this, thought Michael, not that he cared too much. There was little the Peacekeepers could do to him now and while he was actively working on the Testament, he was quite safe.

“So, where were we?” Michael said, turning to Adara.
 
The Visitors - part Six

Michael went back in his memory to that early autumn. The summer had been brief, too brief, and by late September the frost had returned. It had become evident the village’s food supply was not going to last the winter. Reluctantly, Cyril had slaughtered the remaining animals which ended their limited milk supply but had kept them all going for a while.

The soldiers had initially spoken of international food relief and had on a couple of occasions had brought tinned food from Australia and Brazil but those supplies had diminished. One of the soldiers had told Michael that the rest of the world was struggling to feed itself and that nuclear devastated Europe wasn’t a priority. The young soldier had heard that there was no authority left in either the US or the Soviet Union and that much of Europe was, in his words, “a wasteland”.

Trink had some limited contact with the central authorities in Portsmouth and the Regional Government of the South-West but within a few months, this had ended.

It would be many years before Michael found about the rest of the world or even cared.

Into the autumn and the evidence of famine was growing – Michael had once found three dead bodies in the field beyond the village boundary, a mother and two children all had perished apparently in the night. There was not a mark on any of them – perhaps, Michael remembered, they had taken some pills and then just found a place to lie down and die.

There was a problem closer to home – his mother was weakening by the day. She was coughing and too ill to work. She stayed in bed, weakening and aware of her weakness. One morning, Michael’s father simply announced she was dead. Michael quickly realised his father had ended his mother’s suffering. It had been too much for him, indeed for all of them to bear. By then, he had grown closer to Woods’ former daughter-in-law, Ann, and the Goddard girl.

He had quietly resolved that the three of them and his father would survive, no matter what.

It would not be that easy.

Despite the best efforts of the villagers, the winter ahead looked bleak. Michael had unexpectedly and unwittingly become prominent following his mother’s death and his father’s grief. Gus was effectively the leader of the community as Cyril too was ailing. An inventory of the food stocks had told a dismal tale – with no more help from the authorities, it seemed, the inhabitants of Trink faced starvation before the spring.

The external foraging trips had grown more desperate and the Trink survivors had been forced further afield. One day, they found the Trencrom community gone, well, some of them. A number had committed suicide together – they had almost entirely run out of food. Michael had gone to the outskirts of Penzance and to Sancreed looking for food – at Sancreed, they had been chased off by a hostile group but in Penzance, they found much of the town abandoned with evidence of fires and violence everywhere. Again, apart from old tins, very little food.

The oil supplies were also running low and the Army had not been seen for several weeks.

“When did the plague reach you?” interrupted Paul suddenly

“It wasn’t a plague in the true sense of the word,” said Michael quietly but firmly, “after the First World War, in 1918, there had been a similar outbreak of what had been called Spanish Flu. Millions had died, more than had perished in the fighting.

After the Exchange, there were millions of survivors who, with the passage of time, became weakened and malnourished. I knew that large groups of weakened people would be easy prey for a bug or virus.”

“It was a weapon of Biology, “announced Adara.

“Yes, “echoed Paul,” the final weapon of the Old World. The last vengeance of the Communists.”

“I don’t think so, well, I’m not sure, to be honest,” said Michael.

He remembered the first inklings from travellers of something terrible moving through the land, rumours of death and disease in the depths of winter. How it reached Trink he did not know but soon after the turn of the year, people became ill. His father had been struck down and within three terrible days was dead. Michael buried him next to his mother on the hillside, then he and the Goddard girl had both become ill too but, thanks to Ann and great good fortune, they had survived.

Many others had not – the hotelier’s wife had perished and Gus went mad with grief. They found him hanging from the old spruce on the hillside after a storm, bedraggled and broken.

Of the 120 souls who had lived in Trink before the disease, barely half survived but there was enough food for the survivors to see out the winter, albeit barely.

With Gus’s death, a new order came to prominence. Edward was an unpleasant, suspicious man and did not take well to “outsiders”. Within a few weeks, he had decided that only those native to Trink should remain and the rest should leave. At gunpoint, in the early March dawn, Michael, Ann and the Goddard girl were escorted out of the village with a tiny amount of food and a pistol.
 
Wow. You are a terrific writer. You capture the essence and bleakness of the times without being flowery or over the top. Stark simplicity, I love it. I like the character's musings on the fate of the old world, like describing the radioactive ruins of Los Angeles, the annihilation of the Deutsche, inhaling molecules of London. Wonderful and terrifying imagery.
 
Your writing is very good stodge, but as you can probably already guess, I fiercely disagree with your view of the post war situation and the descend of Britain into chaos and anarchy.

There is potential for nastiness in isolated communities and villages, that I can't disagree with. But a complete collapse of authority and a reversal to the Dark Ages complete with the creation of a new mythology about what happened. That is just impossible in my opinion.

As I have said before, the more I dig into the whole reconstruction and recovery issue, the more I am convinced that a "neofeudal" scenario is a near impossibility.
All the studies on the unthinkable are also confirming this view.
 
Having visited and lived in some post-crash societies which had far more gentle crashes than this TL's, I respectfully disagree, and think that even this thread is sort of optimistic and idealistic. In SF fandom there is some term for 'kindler, gentler British apocalypses' which I'm failing to remember at the moment.

But anyway, I've been in former not-3rd-world countries in worse shape than this fantasy alt-history 'The Visitors' seem to be. So, let the bad times roll!
 
Your writing is very good stodge, but as you can probably already guess, I fiercely disagree with your view of the post war situation and the descend of Britain into chaos and anarchy.

There is potential for nastiness in isolated communities and villages, that I can't disagree with. But a complete collapse of authority and a reversal to the Dark Ages complete with the creation of a new mythology about what happened. That is just impossible in my opinion.

As I have said before, the more I dig into the whole reconstruction and recovery issue, the more I am convinced that a "neofeudal" scenario is a near impossibility.
All the studies on the unthinkable are also confirming this view.

In my defence, we are in the present day, ie: nearly thirty years after the original events of February 1984. The author is trying to recollect his experiences from the immediate aftermath and, like all recollection, it is subjective and potentially inaccurate.

The irony is that though the present wants to know more about the past, all that the "Testament" will do is heap layers of inaccuracy onto an already-distorted worldview.

I would also contend that I am not reverting to "the Dark Ages". There is civilisation and there is authority and I would argue that west Cornwall is fairly "remote" even today from authority - the Regional seat of Government is Bristol - 150 miles away. There is order too and people to impose that order. The perspective of these people is "local" yet west Cornwall isn't a few villages and the remit of "the Council" extends a bit further as we'll discover later.

You'll not be surprised to hear I found the concept that 2012 in a post-nuclear war TL to be a bit like the 1950s to be utterly absurd. Where these "studies" are and what they are I don't know but it sounds like the sort of thinking that prevailed in some quarters in the early 80s when it was thought a single strike could lead to victory in a nuclear conflict.

Perhaps you should watch "The War Game" or "Threads" and see how the concept of post-nuclear dystopia was imagined when the threat was much greater than it is now.

The concept of people emerging from their shelters, dusting themselves off and thinking "well, that's over, let's rebuild London" is ludicrous. The sheer psychological emormity of what has happened (which the original P&S timeline conveyed beautifully) isn't going to disappear in a few days or weeks. Many, indeed I would argue, the majority of survivors will be hungry, thirsty, bereaved and in deep shock for months if not years to come.

To imagine that within a generation and a half, we will be back in the idyllic 1950s simply makes no sense. Kuroda may be right and I'm being too hopeful in which case he/she won't like the ending much.

Thankfully, we will hopefully never get to find out which of us is right.
 
The problem isn't if this scenario is more or less optimisitc than the rest of P&S. A collapse of authority down to a very local level is fairly plausible for a post nuclear war scenario. The problem is that as it sits at the moment it doesn't fit with established P&S canon. If you want it as as your own P&S inspired TL or a P&S alternate universe then it's a brilliant effort.

I think with the various 1950s comments people tend to intepret it as the 'modern' sanitised and idealised version of the American late 1950s, where as when it was initally made in a P&S thread it was intended to represent more Europe in the early 1950s i.e. a nation recovering but still suffering from serious damage and rationing.
 
I think with the various 1950s comments people tend to intepret it as the 'modern' sanitised and idealised version of the American late 1950s, where as when it was initally made in a P&S thread it was intended to represent more Europe in the early 1950s i.e. a nation recovering but still suffering from serious damage and rationing.

Was reminded last night just how grey, threadbear and austere things were in the UK in the '50s when I was watching The Ladykillers. It was made in 1955, ten years after WW2 had ended, but a lot of the landscape around King's Cross, where it was filmed, still looked as if the war had ended last week.

The '50s in America was a time of plenty and consumerism, in Europe it was a time of shortages ('just can't get the wood you know' - famous line in The Goon Show), war damage and severe austerity.
IMVHO post-nuclear strike the UK would experience a sort of super-1950s, lasting a couple of decades at least.
 

John Farson

Banned
Personally, I reckon that within a generation and a half people in Europe, North America, East Asia and elsewhere can only wish that things were like the early 50s, i.e. "a nation recovering but still suffering from serious damage and rationing," never mind the idyllic American 1950s.

No, it won't be like Mad Max or Fist of the North Star or the Fallout games(a whole bunch of nukes is still not enough to turn the world into a desert, never mind evaporating the oceans or causing new mountain ranges to be formed, and it wouldn't take 200 years for civilization to recover), but let's not kid ourselves either. Modern civilization in P&S really got it in the neck in February '84, and it's not comparable to WWI and II.
 
Canon...

The problem isn't if this scenario is more or less optimisitc than the rest of P&S. A collapse of authority down to a very local level is fairly plausible for a post nuclear war scenario. The problem is that as it sits at the moment it doesn't fit with established P&S canon. If you want it as as your own P&S inspired TL or a P&S alternate universe then it's a brilliant effort.

I think with the various 1950s comments people tend to intepret it as the 'modern' sanitised and idealised version of the American late 1950s, where as when it was initally made in a P&S thread it was intended to represent more Europe in the early 1950s i.e. a nation recovering but still suffering from serious damage and rationing.

I don't believe "canon" - if we're talking about a year or five after the Exchange, has been established. As for the notion that a single contribution at the end of a single story set in the present becomes recognised canon, that is to me debatable at best. I'll offer my view of 2012 West Cornwall and see what people think.

As for the notion that somehow we're looking at a kind of bombsite 1950s, fine, let's have a "Passport to Pimlico" type situation of rationing and good-humoured cockneys - oh look, isn't that Charles Hawtrey running across the bombsites?

Please...

It's not 1952, seven years after a conventional war - it's 2012, after a global thermonuclear war. I'm NOT trying to portray anarchy or chaos - there HAS been a recovery of sorts, a new society emerging from the wreckage of the old.

I'm trying in my own way to paint a picture of that society - it's hierarchical, traditional with its own ideas and cultures. Call it neo-feudal though it isn't really. It isn't primitive either but the linkages of civilisation have broken - some have been repaired, many haven't.

A lot of the TLs have focussed on the immediate war - fine. Others have emphasised the military aspects - also fine. I'm trying a different approach - one man's personal survival.

I'll put another update through later in the week.

Even if you think I'm driving a coach and horses through "canon" (which I'm not), feel free to read on. I don't think it's an easy read - it's not that easy to write.
 
I would also contend that I am not reverting to "the Dark Ages". There is civilisation and there is authority and I would argue that west Cornwall is fairly "remote" even today from authority - the Regional seat of Government is Bristol - 150 miles away. There is order too and people to impose that order. The perspective of these people is "local" yet west Cornwall isn't a few villages and the remit of "the Council" extends a bit further as we'll discover later.

I can't deny the fact that in isolated parts of Britain, things won't be as easy as in say Salisbury or Bath in TTL 2012. Heck there are pretty wild variance in living standards, mentality and whatever beteween the various parts of Britain and France as it currently stands. So sure the survival experience will be different and that's important to portray it.

You'll not be surprised to hear I found the concept that 2012 in a post-nuclear war TL to be a bit like the 1950s to be utterly absurd. Where these "studies" are and what they are I don't know but it sounds like the sort of thinking that prevailed in some quarters in the early 80s when it was thought a single strike could lead to victory in a nuclear conflict.

Perhaps you should watch "The War Game" or "Threads" and see how the concept of post-nuclear dystopia was imagined when the threat was much greater than it is now.

I have watched Threads once and I don't want to watch it a second time, especially not at this time of the day ...

I have issues with the accuracy of the movies having said that, since there is a lot of fasle information in both of them, especially regarding radiation and fallout. Another poster which worked in emergency prepardeness back in the eighties has an even more hostile view of the movie than I do. As he has some "first hand experience" of the issues at stake, I am inclined to believe what he says.

I am a scientist by trade and training. I therefore only believe what I see for myself or what I can infer based on pre existing facts and informations. Thence why I keep talking about the Black Plague, infrastructure, studies and god knows what topics on the various P&S threads.

The concept of people emerging from their shelters, dusting themselves off and thinking "well, that's over, let's rebuild London" is ludicrous. The sheer psychological emormity of what has happened (which the original P&S timeline conveyed beautifully) isn't going to disappear in a few days or weeks. Many, indeed I would argue, the majority of survivors will be hungry, thirsty, bereaved and in deep shock for months if not years to come.

Human psychology is to be honest a subject still largely unknown and unexplored for better or for worse.
We can however look back at what happened in Nazi extermination camps like Auschwitz, the Soviet Gulags and countries like North Korea to get an idea of what things would be like after the attack.

Despite the horrible conditions prevailing in Auschwitz, there was a semblance of organisation among the inmates, especially among the ones whose will to live was strongest. You had a surprising amount of creativity going in in some of these places, ingenious ways to eat more or do less effort and so on.

Some people will breakdown psychologically speaking after the attacks that's for sure. This is where the role of institutions like the church will be crucial. But some people will try to survive by any means necessary and accomodate themselves with the new realities.

To imagine that within a generation and a half, we will be back in the idyllic 1950s simply makes no sense. Kuroda may be right and I'm being too hopeful in which case he/she won't like the ending much.

Thankfully, we will hopefully never get to find out which of us is right.

The recovery I posited in my massive essay last year was that it would be grimy and dark but that it would happen.

Post WW2 Germany was not attacked by nuclear weapons, but it was still a "world of shit" so to say. Add to this the trauma of Nazism, the mass rapes in the Soviet zone and the refugees from the Eastern Territories. By any metric, this situation would look hopeless and forlorn. Yet it did not remain so for long and fiften years later, it was simply over.

People may have lost a relative, a parent or a home. But then every one else will be in the same situation. This could become a very powerful glue.
 

John Farson

Banned
Post WW2 Germany was not attacked by nuclear weapons, but it was still a "world of shit" so to say. Add to this the trauma of Nazism, the mass rapes in the Soviet zone and the refugees from the Eastern Territories. By any metric, this situation would look hopeless and forlorn. Yet it did not remain so for long and fiften years later, it was simply over.

People may have lost a relative, a parent or a home. But then every one else will be in the same situation. This could become a very powerful glue.

One critical difference, however, was that after WWII there were very large chunks of the industrialised world that had remained untouched (or relatively untouched) from the war and could therefore contribute to the rebuilding of Germany and the rest of Europe and East Asia. Chief among these was of course the US, but also Canada, Latin America, Australia and New Zealand. There were also the European colonies in Africa, the Middle East and South Asia. Britain too was nowhere near as damaged as continental Europe was. Even in Europe itself there were areas where the war hadn't done much damage.

Because of this large number of unaffected areas with high populations and relatively healthy economies, combined with the USSR's ability to exercise ironclad control over the areas it dominated, recovering from the war was a relatively simple affair. Even so, it still took about 15 years for there to be a full recovery.

Here, in P&S, there are no such untouched or lightly affected areas that are large and powerful enough to contribute to a continental and worldwide economy. North America has been severely damaged, Europe has been severely damaged, the USSR has ceased to exist, the PRC is most likely glowing in the dark (courtesy of Soviet and American nukes, no doubt), Japan has most likely lost most of her population (again, due to the Soviets). No doubt the Middle Eastern oilfields have been targeted, as well as oil fields elsewhere in the globe, and also the refineries. Not everything has been destroyed, no doubt, but enough that oil transportation and refinement has been severely disrupted.

What areas that are unaffected or have been lightly bombed (mostly the southern hemisphere) are either too small, too poor or too far away to be able to provide any meaningful assitance to the stricken areas of the north, at least in the short term. Even without being struck by nukes, the ensuing collapse of the world economy has no doubt been hazardous enough for these countries. Africa no doubt is racked by warfare, ethnic cleansing, famine and epidemics in a biblical scale with there no longer being any UN, Red Cross or other international organisations to provide needed aid and coordinate it (just think about the Ethiopian famine of the mid-80s. Now imagine it combined with WWIII). Also there's no longer any US and USSR to hold the leash on their African proteges. We already know in the main P&S thread that South Africa has transformed into Rwanda^100. No doubt other horror stories abound in the continent as well. Heck, one nuke on the Aswan Dam would be enough to effectively wipe out Egypt.

Unlike WWII, this time there is no white hat (or black hat) superpower and its allies waiting in the wings to ride in to the rescue like the cavalry. Everybody, and I mean everybody, is on their own.
 
The truly major difference imo between the Austerity societies in postwar Europe (In which I grew up) and our P & S 2012 is the utter destruction of the people in the P & S world. I understand that the population of UK as a whole is no more than 10 million, maybe less, and the lost people were virtually all in the cities......in other words, the scientists, engineers, architects, doctors, entrepreneurs and managers are almost all gone.

This was certainly not the case in postwar Europe. I remember as a kid that nothing ever got fixed once broken......houses were shored up with timber, windows patched with wood or cardboard, roads full of potholes. Bomb-sites were our playgrounds and our toys were either home-made or old Civil Defence helmets etc.

But.....the population base of productive and skilled people was intact and functioning, the prewar population almost the same as postwar. Also there was the US with Marshall Aid as a totally intact resource.

In thinking about a demoralised population of largely country people trying to deal with fallout, famine, anarchy (away from Portsmouth and certain military bases), where the cities have been turned into fields of weed-overgrown rubble, and without any government above a basic militia level, I truly doubt if any recovery can be expected for many decades, and that recovery limited to basic food production and distribution with basic law and order.

Access to medical aid, household appliances, motor vehicles, telephones and suchlike would be available only to the authorities in Portsmouth and Chanticleer, and there in only very small amounts. We won't even mention education.

As another thought....I believe that the very concepts of individual rights and freedoms might be lost in post Exchange culture...rule by fiat would become ingrained after 30 years or so, and with a largely illiterate population growing up without access to any literature or indeed any written material except public notices etc., I cannot that changing for a very long time.
 
Unlike WWII, this time there is no white hat (or black hat) superpower and its allies waiting in the wings to ride in to the rescue like the cavalry. Everybody, and I mean everybody, is on their own.

There is no white hat to step in and help Europe recover this time that's for sure and I can't deny that this will have a huge impact on recovery and reconstruction. Nevertheless, it is very important not to forget that Europe's post war recovery was in a very large part, driven locally and that the Marshall Plan was only an extra contribution and not the initial factor behind the recovery. In France for example, the economic recovery was already well underway as the Marshall Plan kicked in. The extra benefits from the Plan likely allowed for some extra growth to take place, but they were not the trigger behind the growth.

The situation in Asia and Africa is in my opinion utterly irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. These areas were a net drain on western resources then, so their loss is actually a benefit in itself in a rather macabre way.

The truly major difference imo between the Austerity societies in postwar Europe (In which I grew up) and our P & S 2012 is the utter destruction of the people in the P & S world. I understand that the population of UK as a whole is no more than 10 million, maybe less, and the lost people were virtually all in the cities......in other words, the scientists, engineers, architects, doctors, entrepreneurs and managers are almost all gone.

A large part of higher level managers, scientists and engineers are gone that’s for sure, but this a loss that can be replaced and is even not as big as it seems.
Shall we make a list for example of large town and cities that have survived intact in the South West region for example?
-Bath
-Salisbury
-Taunton
-Swindon (with locomotive works then! Add in a car factory too!)
-Weston super Mare (helicopter works)
-Yeovil (aerospace works)
-Bournemouth/Poole

You can also add Oxford since it is nearby as well.

That’s several Universities and colleges, several high technology industrial installations of importance, thousands of minor technical/engineering/industrial companies and tens of thousands of qualified technical staff and individuals.

It must not be forgotten that during World War Two, the government sub contracted local automobile garages to make aircraft parts and even basic weapons like the Sten submachine gun for example. You can do a LOT of stuff with simple equipment and tools from this day and age. So honestly with the appropriate “gearing down” rebuilding a maintaining an infrastructure at a 1930s technological level for some time is doable.

The loss of big cities like London is a huge loss. But frankly who needs artists, comedians, public relation consultants, aestheticians and such in a post attack world?
This is a very utilitarian view of things and I realise it fully. But we have to think along these lines I am afraid in order to try and imagine what things might be like post attack.


This was certainly not the case in postwar Europe. I remember as a kid that nothing ever got fixed once broken......houses were shored up with timber, windows patched with wood or cardboard, roads full of potholes. Bomb-sites were our playgrounds and our toys were either home-made or old Civil Defence helmets etc.
But.....the population base of productive and skilled people was intact and functioning, the prewar population almost the same as postwar. Also there was the US with Marshall Aid as a totally intact resource.

The Marshall Aid was a help, but IMO its contribution was minor in the grand scheme of things. Especially in Germany who got less than anyone else in terms of help. Britain got the most amounts of help through the Marshall Plan, yet the British economy was one of the worst performing overall during the fifties.

In thinking about a demoralised population of largely country people trying to deal with fallout, famine, anarchy (away from Portsmouth and certain military bases), where the cities have been turned into fields of weed-overgrown rubble, and without any government above a basic militia level, I truly doubt if any recovery can be expected for many decades, and that recovery limited to basic food production and distribution with basic law and order.

Everyone will be in the same world of shit together and this will pull people together and not apart in my opinion.
Law and order maintenance will be easier than we think in my opinion, since harsh punishments will be quickly re-established. DO NOT underestimate the effect of putting someone in stocks with a placard saying “I stole food from a depot”. Public executions and canings should have a similar effect as well.

Access to medical aid, household appliances, motor vehicles, telephones and suchlike would be available only to the authorities in Portsmouth and Chanticleer, and there in only very small amounts. We won't even mention education.
As another thought....I believe that the very concepts of individual rights and freedoms might be lost in post Exchange culture...rule by fiat would become ingrained after 30 years or so, and with a largely illiterate population growing up without access to any literature or indeed any written material except public notices etc., I cannot that changing for a very long time.

Actually the telephone network should be intact in areas outside of blast zones and considering its interconnectedness, I think that sending messages from one end of the country to another is still possible, if somewhat slower. Failing that basic telegraphy using Morse is well within the capabilities of post attack Britain.

The present educational system is full of “fluff” honestly and that fluff can easily be removed post attack. In any case, the imperative of keeping children busy and active at day times, means that some form of education will be in place a few months after the attacks in my opinion. It will widely differ between areas I grant that, but it will happen. Sure, anyone older than 12 will be working in some form or another. But basic primary education will persist and will remain.
 

John Farson

Banned
There is no white hat to step in and help Europe recover this time that's for sure and I can't deny that this will have a huge impact on recovery and reconstruction. Nevertheless, it is very important not to forget that Europe's post war recovery was in a very large part, driven locally and that the Marshall Plan was only an extra contribution and not the initial factor behind the recovery. In France for example, the economic recovery was already well underway as the Marshall Plan kicked in. The extra benefits from the Plan likely allowed for some extra growth to take place, but they were not the trigger behind the growth.

Yes, but Europe did not lose hundreds of millions of people all at once. Neither did it suffer the kind of damage to infrastructure and the economy that it's suffered here. One cannot compare recovery from WWII (a conventional war) to recovery from a global thermonuclear war. If it was only one or two countries, yes, then recovery would be simpler. But most of the continent has been affected, with lightly affected areas few and far between. And this is compounded with the devastation in the wider world.


The situation in Asia and Africa is in my opinion utterly irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. These areas were a net drain on western resources then, so their loss is actually a benefit in itself in a rather macabre way.

Not to the Asians and Africans (and Latin Americans, for that matter) it isn't. Try saying that to their faces. And they weren't just a drain on resources, they supplied resources as well (like oil, first and foremost). The end of international trade will be a further hindrance to recovery.

Talking about recovery from a nuclear war as if it were the same as recovery from a conventional war is veering into Pollyanna territory, IMVHO.
 
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I for one am really enjoying Stodge's story and I think it is closer to how I think that life would have been post nuclear exchange than some of the more optimistic scenarios but then I find reading those enjoyable too. What is wrong with having two differing endings emerging from what continues to be one of the best things on the whole AH website.

Theologically the concept of 'canon', is about what is accepted not necessarily what is consistent, (some of the bible is inconsistent but still communicates a vital story).

IMVHO, and I accept I am much less knowledgeable than many others, introducing something as fundamentally dramatic as a major nuclear exchange into any timeline will produce so many different variables that accurately predicting what might happen is extraordinarily difficult. It could have been better and it could have been far far worse. Interestingly could I ask the question, as the Ethiopian famine was raised, would actually Africa in the long run have been better off without Western interference and intervention, however well meant?
 
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