Protect & Survive in 2012

We have more in the P&Sverse, in terms of information, than any other TL I can think of on this site. How is the world now? Radiation has probably gone, except for half of the Strontium-90, weather is back to normal, and the population die-off is over...everyone who is going to starve to death has long done so (am I right?).
What is the world's population? What is its technology level? What are the leading world powers? What other characteristics does the world have today?
 
We have more in the P&Sverse, in terms of information, than any other TL I can think of on this site. How is the world now? Radiation has probably gone, except for half of the Strontium-90, weather is back to normal, and the population die-off is over...everyone who is going to starve to death has long done so (am I right?).
What is the world's population? What is its technology level? What are the leading world powers? What other characteristics does the world have today?
The USA is likely the major world power although with much reduced capacities, the USSR or it's main sucessor state is possibly a regional power, and some southern hemisphere countries are now regional powers.:)
A more accurate description can only be given when the stories set in the P&S universe advances towards present time.
 
Doubt it. For some countries nuclear weapons will be the only things that give them any influence at all. The UK is certainly not going to give up its remaining nuclear weapons.

The UK is probably going to look like an odd hybrid of the 19th and late 20th Centuries - a largely rural society of towns and villages, rather than cities, but with radio and jet aircraft. Government will in likelyhood be devolved to a great degree, a legacy of the rule by Regional Comissioners; in time IMVHO their sucessors would be elected (although the RCs themselves were all government ministers, and thus MPs). Central Government may just deal with defence and foreign policy, which was the plan for it immediatley post-strike and during the initial recovery period.
 
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I have given this some thought because of the format I use in the Land of Sad Songs. The "contemporary" framing parts of the TL are written from the point of view of 2012 (or so) Swedish researchers.

Sweden has become on of the most important nations in the world, or at the very least of Europe. It has at least most of OTL Finnish territories and a lot of OTL Norway under its sphere of influence. Some parts of OTL Denmark and Baltic states, possibly. It is by far the leading naval power in the Baltic.

Technologically, it is something like mid-to-late 80s at best. Sweden has some indigenous industry and can, within certain limits, improve upon early 80s technology. Often, though, there is no real reason - because it is not in danger of being overtaken. I'd imagine the emphasis on innovation to be in durability and "more bang for the buck".

In the territories under Swedish influence that were worse hit but still recovering and orderly, it looks like a combination of all decades between the 1920s and 1980s. In Eastern Finland, the domain of the "Finnish National Administration", for example most trains run on steam and lakeland water traffic is often accomplished by steam boats and tugs. A lot of the stuff used is salvaged or jury-rigged.

The standards of living in even this comparatively rich Sweden are at best somewhere on the level of the most-well off East Bloc nations of 1983, I'd say. In the surrounding areas the situation is often a lot worse. By 2012, however, these areas rarely see the famine- like conditions that often visited them in the 80s and early 90s.

Politically speaking most working governments are still holding on to some version of "emergency powers", even while speaking about "normalization". Any centre of power that survived in Europe did so by imposing a pretty draconian rule post-Exchange, and this legacy would linger for a long time. But also there might be a counter-reaction against that, and something like a latter-day Hippie and anti-war movement could emerge to attack the way things "have to be", a movement that would be highly critical of war-time Powers That Be and the necessity of those extreme measures that in the minds of the older generation seem to have preserved civilization.
 
The surviving populations of Europe, Russia and the United States are deeply traumatised by the war and its aftermath, Society has reverted to at least a 19th Century level, if not earlier in most areas and recovery to pre war level society will take decades or centuries assuming it to be possible at all. Famine and diseas is endemic in large parts of the affecteef areas. Banditry would be common. In short the Third World War brought on a New Dark Age. Central Government in most of the old nation states has collapsed as far as we can tell although some successor city states are more stable and perhaps even expanding at the expense of their neighbours. Life is usually naasty, brutish and short in ost places points of lght.

Switzerland has probably been one of he few old nation states that survived and this is where I am writing from. In 1984 we lived in Derby and I was at a British Boarding Schoolin the Midlands. Fortuneatly for me my Father was a Swiss Citizen and the whole family held Swiss passports. This is why I survived the war and did better than most of my schoolmates did. Most probably died in the war itself or in its aftermath. As war clouds gathered my parents took me out of school and the whole family moved back to Switzerland wher most of the population sheltered either in family shelters or big shelters in the aAlps. When war came the Swiss government moved most of the population, us included to the Alpine sheltes. We remained there for years until the fallout and radiation levels reduced to a safe level. It was here I grew up and became a young man.

?During the early 1990s I did my National Service in the Swiss Army as most young men do. From time to tme we had to fight off raidersand brigands though we were well armed and highly trained citizen soldiers. As a country we chose not to expand maintaining the old Swiss traditions. Friendly relations were gradually established betweeen the Northern Italian and Southern French City States.

Under the patronage of my Uncle Walo I entered Swiss politics and gradually rose to my present postion as a junior foreign affairs minister in he present government, Some of the Italian and French city states on our borders recently opened negotiations for membership of the Confederation. This will take time but there is room for optimism on this front,

In the UK and in much of Northern Europe collapse has been almost cmplete. There have been contacts with a number of US and Soviet Successor States. We also have good diplomatic relations with attin merica. Diplomatic relations with China, now one of the major world powers, continued ever since the end of the war. While correct and civilized relations have never been close, There is little left in Germany though a few traumatised survivors made their way over the border and chose asylum and Swiss citizenship. Most of the remaining armies of NATO and the Warsaw Pact became roving bands of bandits and mercanaries who gave us the most trouble. Over the last couple of decades their equipment became unserviceable and most died off. A few set up military settlements and established quasi feudal entities who fight each other from time to time or raid others. This s one of the reasons the French city states wish to join the Swiss Conederacy, We have the strength and technolog to dfefend them properly
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In the UK and in much of Northern Europe collapse has been almost cmplete.

Er..no, unlikely, plus this isn't an RP so I'm a little puzzled about you typing in first person. :confused: The UK's emergency government plans were strong enough that we would stay together as one nation and slowly recover, as I have outlined above.

My own TL is planned to go into the post-war period in the eplilogue (when I get around to writing it. :p).
 
India and Brazil are probably the major world powers in 2012 even with hits during the exchange they would survive in far better shape than others.The US is trying to recover but with the huge population losses and the destruction of major industrial centers it would be largely dependent on surviving stockpile nukes for maintaining relevance post-war same as Britain and France.Probably surviving russian nukes have made it into the hands of other nations or maybe even insurgent groups by 2012.Just how well these know how to use these weapons is up for debate but some probably got hold of whatever they could find.Also some die-hard communist elements probably kept up the fight into the late 80's using whatever they found.So between 1984 and 1990 there could have been some nukes used here and there againstsurviving western assets.In Europe France and Britain are de facto major powers and probably Switzerland and Sweden secondary powers.All the other countries are either unimportant or gone.Most likely France is either in direct or indirect control of the former Low Countries and parts of former Germany.The swiss might have taken over Austria and parts of southern Germany.Sweden is pretty much in control of the Baltic.Britain could be trying to assert control on former Portugal and Spain.Anything east of the former Inner German border is probably still a mess.While some countries might try to at least formally remake themselves like Norway although in practical terms they would be largely dependent on other states others are gone entirely like Denmark which would have been turned into a wasteland with very few survivors.Still by 2012 emergency regulations enacted during the war would have been eased at least in part.The swiss and the swedes probably lifted their states of emergency by the late 80's although some emergency legislation is probably still in effect.The US would also be returning to some semblance of pre-war normality in the sense that execution rates which probably skyrocketed in the 1984-88 period are now more like the rates they had in the 1930's crime rates would still be signficantly above the pre-war levels but declining.
 
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I would think that by now technology would at least be at the late 1980's. By 2035 I believe that technology would finally catch up to the 2000s . By 2050 I bet that the world would finally be "normal" again in every sense of the word.
 
I would think that by now technology would at least be at the late 1980's. By 2035 I believe that technology would finally catch up to the 2000s . By 2050 I bet that the world would finally be "normal" again in every sense of the word.

The development of technology is pretty hard to predict. I'd say that initially there would be a long stagnant period that would see little to no development even in the best-preserved areas. Even the reasonably unharmed nations would use a huge amount of their resources for simple survival. As world trade and economic systems collapse, even the highly advanced areas would have to revert to a more agrarian existence to feed themselves, and to possibly help those areas more poorly off.

In the areas that are somewhat worse off, re-establishing and maintaining order and rebuilding even basic infrastructure would additionally tax whatever centre of power tries to run things for extended periods of time.

Until the world has recovered so much that even regional trade systems (let alone global trade) are re-established and provinces and countries can again specialize in different industries, there is IMHO little chance for meaningful technological development. Before that both the resources and demand for new technology would be too low to allow it.

We might also be surprised of the ways technology will develop after the war. As a huge number of people who invented a lot of things since the early 80s has disappeared, and the changed circumstances call for different kinds of technologies than IOTL, it might be hard to determine when TTL "catches up" with the OTL, because some areas will advance faster and some much slower.

For example the huge die-off of people in the areas that were among the most affluent in 1983 makes me think that consumer electronics would suffer from stagnant development during several decades - simply because there would be little market for them. On the other hand, all things medical and agricultural might see comparatively more advances because of a dire need and the fact that the surviving nations would put high priority on stuff like that.
 
Anything along the lines of "the UK and Northern Europe have collapsed" is pure science fiction and illusions with no base in reality and facts whatsoever.

Scandinavia will now be de facto but not (yet?) de jure united under Swedish aegis. Living standards will be back to pre war levels in some respects, but still below pre war levels in others. I would think that this situation would reproduce itself across many parts of Europe actually, since we are talking about thirty years after the exchange after all!

Famines in Europe are highly unlikely beyond the 1990s in my opinion, though I do expect the food habits of surviving Europeans to change to a degree with a swing back towards native ingredients.
The bombs simply cannot destroy centuries of agricultural knowledge and know-how. Fuel use won't be a problem for agriculture either since as a proportion of present consumption, agriculture only takes a fraction of it. We are talking about one or two percent here, which is nothing quantitatively.

I would actually even expect some kind of "economic boom" to take place in Europe from the late 1990s onwards as normal governance is back in some form and communications are reestablished to an extent.
The pent up demand is going to be huge and reconstruction itself will drive up demand.

France and the United Kingdom will have their population back to thirty/forty millions and booming by that point. London and Paris will probably be undergoing reconstruction by that point, though Portsmouth and Nantes will remain the capitals for a long time. The inevitably close cooperation during the recovery period, shown by possible French grain shipments to Britain and British oil/coal shipments to France. Will means that the relationship between both countries may never be the same again. In any case the need to compete with the rising powers of the southern hemisphere means that cooperation between France and Britain will be close during the post war period.
I would expect joint efforts in rebuilding planes, rockets and electronics at least to be in full swing by now.

Spain and Italy will be fairly well off as well and likely cooperating with the France and Britain too.

The United States will be back, but severly weakened with only sixty to eighty million Americans. Some areas like Nebraska under governor Chipperback have become new economic centres replacing previous ones.

South America might win big, but its internal problems will still be there and may in fact explode in the open post war.

Africa will be a stabilising mess.

China is gone as a power but some government will remain.

India star will be on the ascent but its internal problems means that the hill to climb will be steep and in any case it will have suffered damages as well.

Australia and New Zealand will probably be one of the best places to lives TTL and a destination for millions of refugees from Europe.

Overall technology will be at late 1980s levels but I expect nuclear science, understanding of radioactivity and possible ways to "counter" it to be far ahead of anything we can imagine.
Living standards will be okay, there will be food on the table, but you may have to share your TV with the neighbours like in the fifties. Cars will be back but not as widespread as before. Travel will be domestic only but air travel will start booming once again.
Society may have become far more conservative in some ways, with a bigger community spirit and "toghetherness".
 
An excellent analyisis, Dunois. The '50s is probably a very apt comparison for the UK and France; society may have the same sort of shortages and austerity of that era.

It's interesting to speculate whether India and Pakistan might have had another go at each other in the post-war period. They did not have nuclear weapons in '84, although India had already demonstrated the capability. It is also possible that some PRC nukes might have come India's way during the war.
 
I visited the Imperial War Museum in Manchester yesterday, and had a look at their (small) P&S themed display. This consisted of a short video loop of part of the P&S film, and a map of the north of England demonstrating "what would happen" if a bomb fell on Manchester city centre. It didn't indicate what yield the device supposedly was, but it pretty much said everyone dead as far east as Leeds and northern England uninhabitable for two years. I should have got a photo of the display to post on here.

Very unrealistic and misleading IMO.
 
Switzerland has probably been one of he few old nation states that survived and this is where I am writing from.

But I have read that the Soviet plan in since the late 70´s included nuking major neutral states like Sweden, Swiss and Ireland ... they had so many nukes that they could spare around 2 to 4 just for Dublin! ...

They really were obsessed with any single state surviving almost intact ...
 
An excellent analyisis, Dunois. The '50s is probably a very apt comparison for the UK and France; society may have the same sort of shortages and austerity of that era.

It's interesting to speculate whether India and Pakistan might have had another go at each other in the post-war period. They did not have nuclear weapons in '84, although India had already demonstrated the capability. It is also possible that some PRC nukes might have come India's way during the war.

Thanks JN1, I like the P&S universe since it forces you to think out of the box and analyses problems from a different angle. This kind of exercise should be far more widespread in Universities in my opinion and in some job interviews too.

India and Pakistan will likely have another war with each other, since one will want to take advantage of the percieved weakness of the other (both countries will have been hit). The war will be a huge mess, since logistics could revolve on foraging/looting past a certain point. Pent up hate between Hindus and Muslims could also turn large parts of India into war zones. In any case the loss of western expertise and markets will hit their economy very hard. India will also remain a very corrupt place too, said corruption could even become more prevalent post war too.

One possible future for India is Balkanisation along religious and ethnic lines, fueled by hate and general difficulties. I think that Hindutva movements and Hindu nationalism will be reinforced by the war, with a possible rallying slogan being "This mess is all the fault of the Muslims/Westerners/Chinese". A nationalistic and expansionist India won't solve its internal problems, but will be a destabilising force in the world.

In south America, most countries will still have their internal problems and the loss of western trade will hit them all in the face. Brazil due to its sheer size and more diverse economy has more cards to play than the others. It also has no territorial disputes with any of its neighbours. Unlike Chile and say Bolivia, the latter of whom could eaisly say if Santagio is gone "its now or never to regain our coastline from the Chileans!"

In places like Colombia the guerillas will still be a problem and could try and seize their chances especially if internal troubles increase. The drug cartels will have suddenly lost their main export market and I doubt that they will surrender their weapons.
Venezuela will have its oil has a barganing tool, but corruption, incompetence and so on will hamper development.
 
A lot of old conflicts will probably heat up, or reignite. In @ the Superpowers generally kept a lid on most regional conflicts, or at least prevented them from getting too bad. We saw what happened post 1991 when the restraining hand was withdrawn, just think of the events of the early '90s but even worse.

There will be no UN, or NATO to step in and stop conflicts, or at worst seperate combattants. Also as you say with the 1st World gone, or at least heavily damaged then there will be grave concequences for trade and a shortage of finished goods in a lot of the world.

In TBO there was a shortage of machine tools after Germany was destroyed and in P&S pretty much every major industrialised country will be gone, so just think how much worse the machine tool shortage will be. That is something that will last for at least a generation.
 
Er..no, unlikely, plus this isn't an RP so I'm a little puzzled about you typing in first person. :confused: The UK's emergency government plans were strong enough that we would stay together as one nation and slowly recover, as I have outlined above.

My own TL is planned to go into the post-war period in the eplilogue (when I get around to writing it. :p).

From a personal perspective my whole family in the UK have dual nationality and Swiss passports since the late 1970s. Had a situation like the 1984 war developed with the fairly lengthy lead up time my parents could well have decidesd Switzerland would have been a far safer place than the UK since everyone would have realised that if the balloon went up nuclear war was all but inevitable. o answer the question I assumed that was the deciosion they made and the family survived the war which, had we stayed in the UK, we might well not have done.

Switzerland was better prepared tha most in civil defence preparations during the early 1980s. People sometimes had their own fallout shelters I I remember seeing one owned by one of my Swiss relatives at the time (it doubklled as a rather well stocked wine cellar) Apparently the Swiss government had large official shelters in the Alps and elsewhere that might have beebn used by thr government and the public.

Arugably this would have meant that Switzerland would have been better able to survive as a national entity particularly if, a a neutral, it was not directly attacked. There would have been a large amount of fallout from the 1984 war from the attacks in Germany and to an extent France and Italy. I assumed the Swiss Civil Defence plans worked well enough to allow the country to survive almost intact.

Reading the various posts it is reasonable to assume Germany sufferred the most with tactical and strategic nuclear attacks made on Germn territory both on and off the battlefields. Britain and the US came under a highly intensive attack as did most other European countries including France,

Given this there would be a question of how much government and infrastructure survived intact, Assuming the probable degree to which these suffered there is a question of the degree to which civil defence plans worked in places like the UK over the short, medium and long term/. Likely in some places the plans would have worked much perhaps depending on local personalities and decision making in the post attack period.

In some places the Civil Defence Plans would have worked well and these areas would likely have survived too become points of light in a new, post WW3 Dark Age. In other areas where people survve in significant numbers the Civil Defebce plans might not have worked so well. There is also a question of whether central government surved and, if it did, the extent to which it could maintain control over the regions. In the UK tthe plan seems to have been for 12 regions. If the 1984 government survived what is left of the UK will do fairly well although long term splits could well occur with some regions braking away. Germany nd much of central/Eastern Europe are for the most part just gone. The Soviet Union and US were probably helped by their size but might or might not have survived the post war period ithout breaking apart into constuent states.

The late 1980s and 1990s would, in particular have been a time of collapse as Dunnois says. How thigns go after that depend on how well things went since the war, In places there would be almost complete collapse, in others things migt hold together. I would expect nations suffering direct attack like the UK to have done quite well but may have broken apart. Germany would be in a far worse postion. With the battlefield/strategic exchanges and the fallout over the next few years many Germans be dead, probably most of them. Much the same for countries such as Poland. In these areas government would be virtually non exsistent with roaming bands of ex NATO/Warsaw Pact troops roaming about for years after the war. In short a situation worse than the 30 Years War. Eventually some would settle down as militar settlemenr=ts as there is really no other option. During the 1990s and early 200s this kind of thing might be behind the coalition of new states much as happeened during the post Roman Dark Ages. This would ponly be the start of processes lasting years, if not decades or centuries. A surving Switzerland coulod well become an imortant post war power with the pre war technology/knowledge base being largel intact Most of Europe however is, to some degree, in a new Dark Age which may or may not be as bad as the one following the post Roman collapse. How long this lasts depends on gow things go locally.

In other parts of the world I largely agree with Dunnoisalthough #i don't see why China is gone.Even if nuked it s size may help.

#in Europe, the US and USSR survivor societies are likely deeply traumatised and this may resullt in new belief syt=stems. These could well be more anti technolgy and defiatel anti nuclear. Thi may turn into a new religion or would profoundly affect pre war religions. Pacifism may see groth although against that would be potential for conflict over scarce resources.
 
Anything along the lines of "the UK and Northern Europe have collapsed" is pure science fiction and illusions with no base in reality and facts whatsoever.

Scandinavia will now be de facto but not (yet?) de jure united under Swedish aegis. Living standards will be back to pre war levels in some respects, but still below pre war levels in others. I would think that this situation would reproduce itself across many parts of Europe actually, since we are talking about thirty years after the exchange after all!

Famines in Europe are highly unlikely beyond the 1990s in my opinion, though I do expect the food habits of surviving Europeans to change to a degree with a swing back towards native ingredients.
The bombs simply cannot destroy centuries of agricultural knowledge and know-how. Fuel use won't be a problem for agriculture either since as a proportion of present consumption, agriculture only takes a fraction of it. We are talking about one or two percent here, which is nothing quantitatively.

I would actually even expect some kind of "economic boom" to take place in Europe from the late 1990s onwards as normal governance is back in some form and communications are reestablished to an extent.
The pent up demand is going to be huge and reconstruction itself will drive up demand.

France and the United Kingdom will have their population back to thirty/forty millions and booming by that point. London and Paris will probably be undergoing reconstruction by that point, though Portsmouth and Nantes will remain the capitals for a long time. The inevitably close cooperation during the recovery period, shown by possible French grain shipments to Britain and British oil/coal shipments to France. Will means that the relationship between both countries may never be the same again. In any case the need to compete with the rising powers of the southern hemisphere means that cooperation between France and Britain will be close during the post war period.
I would expect joint efforts in rebuilding planes, rockets and electronics at least to be in full swing by now.

Spain and Italy will be fairly well off as well and likely cooperating with the France and Britain too.

The United States will be back, but severly weakened with only sixty to eighty million Americans. Some areas like Nebraska under governor Chipperback have become new economic centres replacing previous ones.

South America might win big, but its internal problems will still be there and may in fact explode in the open post war.

Africa will be a stabilising mess.

China is gone as a power but some government will remain.

India star will be on the ascent but its internal problems means that the hill to climb will be steep and in any case it will have suffered damages as well.

Australia and New Zealand will probably be one of the best places to lives TTL and a destination for millions of refugees from Europe.

Overall technology will be at late 1980s levels but I expect nuclear science, understanding of radioactivity and possible ways to "counter" it to be far ahead of anything we can imagine.
Living standards will be okay, there will be food on the table, but you may have to share your TV with the neighbours like in the fifties. Cars will be back but not as widespread as before. Travel will be domestic only but air travel will start booming once again.
Society may have become far more conservative in some ways, with a bigger community spirit and "toghetherness".

Refugees who got out to New Zealand and Australia before the war. Probably yes.But ver few or none afterwards

I can see the Arabs having another go at Israel q=which might not survive in the long term without US support.
 
Anything along the lines of "the UK and Northern Europe have collapsed" is pure science fiction and illusions with no base in reality and facts whatsoever.

Scandinavia will now be de facto but not (yet?) de jure united under Swedish aegis. Living standards will be back to pre war levels in some respects, but still below pre war levels in others. I would think that this situation would reproduce itself across many parts of Europe actually, since we are talking about thirty years after the exchange after all!

Famines in Europe are highly unlikely beyond the 1990s in my opinion, though I do expect the food habits of surviving Europeans to change to a degree with a swing back towards native ingredients.
The bombs simply cannot destroy centuries of agricultural knowledge and know-how. Fuel use won't be a problem for agriculture either since as a proportion of present consumption, agriculture only takes a fraction of it. We are talking about one or two percent here, which is nothing quantitatively.

I would actually even expect some kind of "economic boom" to take place in Europe from the late 1990s onwards as normal governance is back in some form and communications are reestablished to an extent.
The pent up demand is going to be huge and reconstruction itself will drive up demand.

France and the United Kingdom will have their population back to thirty/forty millions and booming by that point. London and Paris will probably be undergoing reconstruction by that point, though Portsmouth and Nantes will remain the capitals for a long time. The inevitably close cooperation during the recovery period, shown by possible French grain shipments to Britain and British oil/coal shipments to France. Will means that the relationship between both countries may never be the same again. In any case the need to compete with the rising powers of the southern hemisphere means that cooperation between France and Britain will be close during the post war period.
I would expect joint efforts in rebuilding planes, rockets and electronics at least to be in full swing by now.

Spain and Italy will be fairly well off as well and likely cooperating with the France and Britain too.

The United States will be back, but severly weakened with only sixty to eighty million Americans. Some areas like Nebraska under governor Chipperback have become new economic centres replacing previous ones.

South America might win big, but its internal problems will still be there and may in fact explode in the open post war.

Africa will be a stabilising mess.

China is gone as a power but some government will remain.

India star will be on the ascent but its internal problems means that the hill to climb will be steep and in any case it will have suffered damages as well.

Australia and New Zealand will probably be one of the best places to lives TTL and a destination for millions of refugees from Europe.

Overall technology will be at late 1980s levels but I expect nuclear science, understanding of radioactivity and possible ways to "counter" it to be far ahead of anything we can imagine.
Living standards will be okay, there will be food on the table, but you may have to share your TV with the neighbours like in the fifties. Cars will be back but not as widespread as before. Travel will be domestic only but air travel will start booming once again.
Society may have become far more conservative in some ways, with a bigger community spirit and "toghetherness".

This seems to be alright but bigger community spirit and togetherness doesn't at all automatically suggest that society has become far more conservative. In fact, to be honest. if anything at all, if there's any areas in the world that have become far more conservative, it's likely to be those areas that have lost all real cohesion and stability and where small groups of people will likely be fighting each other for dominance over what's left.
 
Refugees who got out to New Zealand and Australia before the war. Probably yes.But ver few or none afterwards

I can see the Arabs having another go at Israel q=which might not survive in the long term without US support.

I doubt the Arab countries would survive better than Israel. Just think about it: no one to sell their oil to, the main source to weapons replaced with radioactive dust and no UNHCR to feed all Palestinians in camps. How self-sufficent were the Middle East regarding foodstuffs in 1984?

From a military standpoint Israel could have glassed their neighbours. And in P&S there are no other standpoint. So if the Arabic countries simply look funny at Israel there will be a new wave of nuclear explosions.
 
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