Protect and Survive (Ireland)

[Bernard Woolley]

So long as it sticks within the established P&S canon I don't see a problem with more spin-offs. If anyone is concerned I can ask Jack if he is okay with the new additions; I tend to act in loco since he managed to get himself banned (just couldn't keep away from the Bronies ).

As to targets, as on the open thread I'd suggest the following:

Dublin (centre of government)
Shannon Airport (was used as a transit point for NATO aircraft)
Casement/Baldonnel Aerodrome (military airport, could potentially be used by NATO)
Curragh Camp (major defence force facility)

An additional possible target might be Cork, both as the 2nd largest city in the RoI and as a port. Moreover a brigade of the army is based in the city, as is the Naval Service. Using Haulbowline as the GZ would probably take out the port, INS H.Q and a good bit of the city. Will need to have a shot of the nuclear effects indicator to see what would happen.

Number of weapons wise the Soviets would be able to achieve the above with a minimum of 6 warheads.

EDIT: would recommend the NUKEMAP site to try it out for yourself.

 

[Wolf_Tone]

Chapter II: Preparing for the worst II


Charles James Haughey was a man of the world.
He had been around. Very little would shock him, yet he was standing in the courtyard of government buildings, flanked by two bodyguards, looking stunned at a scene of pure carnage. There were at least a dozen bodies laying around the courtyard, blood stains everywhere, chunks taken out of the walls from gunfire. President Hillary had just been rushed off to hospital, he had been in the courtyard taking the air, standing ready to sign any change in policy into law after the debate, when the shooting started.

Saor Éire, a communist paramilitary group indirectly linked to the various IRA's had struck. The public thought they were long dead, they were not. They, and a collection of volunteers from the CIRA and PIRA had heard the rumor that the govt was considering throwing its hat in with NATO. They feared this would mean nuclear annihilation for the country so sought to overthrow the government to ''save the nation''.

They had expected unarmed dress uniform police at the gates not a team of special forces commandos half their age and ten times their skills. Still they did well, a few were probably veterans of the troubles and may have fought British special forces. Two of them were still alive with minor injuries so Haughey had ordered their interrogation.

The capital city was swarming with army rangers for about 10 miles in all directions around government buildings.




For the two dead unarmed cops alone Haughey would press for the death penalty. He took perverse pleasure in telling the prisoners it had been for nothing since the Oireachtas narrowly voted to stay neutral, with a review of the situation every 30 days. "You'll be dead by the time it starts anyway, I plan to throw the lever myself".
They were processed and their case sent by the DPP to the special criminal court for trial.

---------------------------------------------



Captain Derek Jennings, the Taoiseachs military aide, was nervously pacing outside the surgical theater while his best friend, 25 year old Captain Anthony Barber,, the Presidents military aide, sat staring down at the floor he had sunk to after they took the President in He had lost his peaked cap in the confusion of the courtyard. His close cropped blond hair still had stones and dirt caught in it from when he tried to shove the President to the ground one second too late. His usually spotless uniform was caked with his commander in chiefs blood.

Barber had good reason to love his commander in cheif. When the coalition government could not pass a budget in 1982, Fitzgerald had traveled to Aras An Uachtarain (the presidential palace in the phoenix park) to ask the President to call an election.

Charles Haughey had rang up the Aras to try to cajole the President into making him Taoiseach instead of having an election. When Captain Barber had told him that the President would be making the decision on his own, Haughey threatened Barbers career and threw abuse at him.

Barber told Haughey in no uncertain terms what he thought of him, and hung up the phone. The President then angrily summoned the Chief of Defense Forces right then and there and ordered him to make sure nobody ever interfered with Anthony Barbers career and that if he ''so much as had a flat tyre'' until the day he retires he would make sure that both the General and Haughey would pay dearly for it.

This move was all the more extraordinary since Haughey and Patrick Hillary were from the same party.
They heard the door open and Barber was on his feet in a second. A surgeon in blue scrubs and a surgical cap emerged. They had not heard any panic or that signature beep of a flat line, maybe he was ok?

---------------------------------------------

As the national unity cabinet met for the first time, many weighty matters hung over them. What executive orders to issue, how much to spend upgrading defenses v importing essentials, leaving Dublin or not, announcing that fact or not. ''Right let's get started'' Fitzgerald said but there was a knock on the door. Captain Jennings stepped in, his usually bright blue eyes cast downward. When everyone turned to look at him he spoke "the president died 20 minutes ago from massive internal bleeding".
​

 

[deathscompanion1]

Nice update things could have been a lot worse.

 

[sparky42]

Not too nitpick, but why would the president be in government buildings? He plays no role in the decision of the cabinet even in such extreme situations, the cabinet would inform him of their decision.

Also the rangers wouldn't be on the streets, there's only 100 or so of them and I'd guess they would be supporting counter operations against the group.

 

[Wolf_Tone]

Not too nitpick, but why would the president be in government buildings? He plays no role in the decision of the cabinet even in such extreme situations, the cabinet would inform him of their decision.

Also the rangers wouldn't be on the streets, there's only 100 or so of them and I'd guess they would be supporting counter operations against the group.

You know I was hoping only British and Americans would be reading this because I figured there would be people jumping in trying to ruin it every two seconds with ''but we can't afford jets'' and ''he would never be a minister'' and ''the president would never do that''...sigh...

This is not normal circumstances, nuclear war is imminent, the very survival of the human race could be at stake if there are multiple missile exchanges, you can't judge things on how they normally go.

Besides, if you had read the other updates you would see why the President was there...

He (The Taoiseach) felt the entire national leadership needed to hear it all laid out.

​

...nowhere did I say he played any role in the decisions. He also has to be there to appoint the new cabinet, and sign the new emergency laws or any change in neutrality policy, even if he has to post-date it, there is just no time to drive up to him later when missiles could be flying at any moment. He needed to be in the room and hear the breifing so he would not get thoughts of refusing to sign the bill and sending it to the Supreme Court etc Besides which the President is regularly breifed on policy matters, since nukes could be going off any second it's better for him to hear it quickly than for Fitzgerald to take a leisurely drive up to him later.

The number of rangers is classified, but 100 is more than enough to cover the immediate area around government buildings.
Counter-Insurgency is one of their key roles.
In the event of a coup they are not going to be anywhere other than the site of the coup...the city centre around government buildings which is where I said they were.
There would be attackers that would have retreated once they saw it was rangers not unarmed cops they were up against, someone has to pursue them. There were no regional Garda SWAT teams back then, so who is going to persue them?

 

[Wolf_Tone]

Chapter II: Preparing for the worst III



In a way they didn't need a president. The Emergency Powers Orders (EPO's) would replace laws for now and didn't need a presidents signature.

All 3 leaders were polarizing figures, so were their colleagues.
They needed a President to do 'fireside chats' to keep the country calm.
Realizing an election was impossible in this climate, they decided to use a special clause of the constitution that allowed the President to be appointed rather than elected if there was all party agreement on a candidate.

Names were thrown around, most were too partisan, eventually Spring suggested independent Senator Mary Robinson.
He was going to urge her to run next time anyway, she was an advocate of non partisan issues. The most powerful argument though, was her performance in this very room earlier. She had impressed everyone with her ideas.

They agreed. The government spokesman would hold a press conference at 5:00pm announcing the terrorist attack, the president death, the national unity government and the decision on neutrality.
They would leave a gap before announcing the new president, to give the country time to absorb Hillarys death. A second press conference would be held at 12 the next afternoon to announce Robinsons elevation, all four party leaders would be present to show total national unity around the new president. She would be sworn in before a joint session of the Oireachtas at 12:30.
She would address the nation at 5:00pm from Aras An Uchtaran that same day. It would be she who announced the state of emergency.

Robinson was summoned back to the cabinet room and informed of her sudden promotion. She asked to be present in all cabinet meetings. If she was going to be doing the ''fireside chats'' explaining decisions to the population, she had to be in the room to see how those decisions were arrived at, in order to make those arguments to people she met around the country.

People were so focused on the government spokesman on their TV's and the shocking news that they did not notice the doors of fire stations quietly opening, 2/3 of the ambulances and fire engines slinking out with their lights off, police cars following, vanishing into the night.
Those who lived in major suburbs outside the city were so fascinated watching the heavily armed soldiers on the streets of the city centre behind the RTE reporter, they did not notice they were also outside their windows beside police officers that now wore vests and carried side arms.


​

 

[sparky42]

You know I was hoping only British and Americans would be reading this because I figured there would be people jumping in trying to ruin it every two seconds with ''but we can't afford jets'' and ''he would never be a minister'' and ''the president would never do that''..

The number of rangers is classified, but 100 is more than enough to cover the immediate area around government buildings.
Counter-Insurgency is one of their key roles.
In the event of a coup they are not going to be anywhere other than the site of the coup...the city centre around government buildings which is where I said they were.
There would be attackers that would have retreated once they saw it was rangers not unarmed cops they were up against, someone has to pursue them. There were no regional Garda SWAT teams back then, so who is going to persue them?

And what is the ERU and the army units in the bases in Dublin doing during this event that means the rangers have to be brought in, responding from the Curragh instead of in Dublin, hell the number of armed Gardaí in Dublin is the highest anyway? They have more than enough to secure the buildings, deploying the elite of the Irish forces for guarding buildings isn't logical, when there's likely to be call outs throughout Ireland after this act.

 

[Bernard Woolley]

You know I was hoping only British and Americans would be reading this because I figured there would be people jumping in trying to ruin it every two seconds with ''but we can't afford jets'' and ''he would never be a minister'' and ''the president would never do that''...sigh...

Because we don't know anything about the Defence Force presumably?
I'm afraid I have to add my nitpick. Using the Rangers to guard government buildings would be like using the SAS/SBS to guard Whitehall; it's something they are massivley over-qualified to do.

If the Garda doesn't have enough resources to provide armed guards then I'm pretty sure that ordinary regular and reserve infantry would be more than up to the job. Rangers are better used hunting insurgent/terrorist groups than static protection.

Just my 2ps worth, however.

 

[Wolf_Tone]

And what is the ERU and the army units in the bases in Dublin doing during this event that means the rangers have to be brought in, responding from the Curragh instead of in Dublin, hell the number of armed Gardaí in Dublin is the highest anyway? They have more than enough to secure the buildings, deploying the elite of the Irish forces for guarding buildings isn't logical, when there's likely to be call outs throughout Ireland after this act.

Mate there is a difference between constructive criticism and suggestions and just hounding someone as they tell their story nitpicking every little thing.

In addition every one of your criticisms seems based on something that shows you did not properly read the updates.
If you had you would see that the Rangers did not suddenly arrive from the Curragh, they had been there from earlier that day, Fitzgerald saw them at the gates when he was arriving into work. The attack is hours later. Others, probably the Defense minister, had deployed them there earlier before the story even started. That was right there in the very start of the story, I can't see how you could have missed that.

The Garda Emergency Response Units job is to deal with situations where the police may come upon armed suspects in raids, hostage situations etc they are not there to take on armed paramillitarys who are trying to overthrow the government that's just not their job, they are neither trained nor equipped for that.
They might deal with the likes of the IRA in the sense that when IRA members have to be arrested or they come upon what they think is an arms dump they might send the ERU in instead of the normal unarmed units, but a rebel group trying to overthrow the government is another kettle of fish. Thats a very different threat.

The idea that detectives carrying revolvers and glock pistols are going to run out of police stations and take on guys wearing body armour and wielding heavy duty assault rifles is ridiculous. That's not their job either.

The rangers were there because counter-insurgency is their job, not the polices. Doomsday has arrived, there is a serious chance that subversive groups might make a move on the state, there is even a chance that Soviet units might be in the country engaging in sabotage like they were in other European counties...this is not a situation where your local detective is the person you call to deal with it. The rangers were created for JUST this type of situation, so if they are not to be called out when doomsday itself has arrived then I don't know when we would call them.

They were not there 'just in case'. I originally had a whole section about them receiving specific intel of an attack but decided it made the post too long and people would get that message anyway.

Because we don't know anything about the Defence Force presumably?
.

No...

because I figured there would be people jumping in trying to ruin it every two seconds with ''but we can't afford jets'' and ''he would never be a minister'' and ''the president would never do that''...sigh...

Irish people, I've found, as I said in my first post, have a compacent attitude to security issues and think 'that will never happen' 'xyz will never be needed'. Your posts kind of prove it, World War III is about to break out, there is a group trying to overthrow the state, and you want the local detectives to deal with it.
Counter-Insurgency is their job, it's not the polices job, end of.

 

[sparky42]

Irish people, I've found, as I said in my first post, have a compacent attitude to security issues and think 'that will never happen' 'xyz will never be needed'. Your posts kind of prove it, World War III is about to break out, there is a group trying to overthrow the state, and you want the local detectives to deal with it.
Counter-Insurgency is their job, it's not the polices job, end of.

That's a wide ranging comment that is well wide of the mark, but F**K it, I've given up trying to have discussions about things on the site at this stage.

 

[Bernard Woolley]

While I can see your point about not using the Garda, why use the Irish Army's best unit on static protection duty? 2 Infantry Brigade is based in Dublin and even without bringing in troops from outside the city it would be able to provide 7 Infantry Battalion, 2 Cavalry Squadron and 2 Military Police Company for protection of government buildings and other Key Points.

Certainly I can imagine rangers being used for close protection of VIPs, but IMVHO having them stand on 'stag', to use a British term, is not the best use of what are very highly trained men. The time to use the rangers is after the attack when the Irish State needs to hunt down the terrorists.

 

[Wolf_Tone]

That's a wide ranging comment that is well wide of the mark, but F**K it, I've given up trying to have discussions about things on the site at this stage.

I came on here to tell a story based on a topic I've been thinking about for a long time. I didn't come on here to argue with people. I think the comment about Irish attitudes to security issues is bang on the mark. Just a few days ago the papers were up in arms about a 4meuro missile system (out of a 40BILLION euro budget) designed to shoot down aircraft. Now the populace won't let the state buy fighter jets, so if a hyjacked jet comes from the western approches and heads towards one of those nuclear plants on the British coast we have nothing to intercept it with, and going through channels to allow the RAF to do it would kill vital time. So they got this missile system instead, and they reckon it will be enough. The jets would have cost between 200-500million, the missile system cost just 4...and they were still complaining.
Now if that plane slammed into a reactor and there was a new Chernobyl the very same people would be complaining that no plans or preparation was made. I've been in politics since I was a kid I've had this debate with members of the public and the political establishment over and over and over, ''we don't need that stuff because it will never happen'' is a near universal attitude.

As to the story....
Their job is counter-insurgency...and an insurgency was happening...it seemed like a no brainier to me to use them.

We'll just have to respectfully disagree.

JN1 I think I get what you are saying, that the Rangers are meant to be a small fast moving highly mobile unit not used for defending one fixed spot, sure to an extent that is true, but one of the key tasks they are trained for is counter insurgency and there was an insurgency so why waste them sitting there in the Curragh twidling their thumbs when a real fight is going down? Their government is being overthrown and we want them to sit there hoping the local police can deal with it? It just seems silly.
As for why not a regular army unit, I figured when the attack happens as I said some will retreat and they are best equipped to persue and track them. A regular infantry unit is trained to defend a position in a conventional millitary situation, whereas rangers are trained for the specific scenario counter-insurgency. They also have to acheive a far higher standard in terms of shooting and accuracy, and in the city centre it's best to have someone like that, rather than an infantry unit spraying bullets all over the place, to avoid as much innocent death as possible.

 

[Bernard Woolley]

I'm sorry to bang on about this but IIRC regular Irish troops were used to support the police during The Troubles. Now if we planned to use regular and TA troops on KP duty, why wouldn't Ireland? Is the fire-discipline of the Irish Army that bad compared to ours?

However it's your story and if you feel that the rangers are the best unit to use then that's what you should go with. At the end of the day you are the author.
If I may suggest a compromise, how about using rangers to protect the Government Buildings since that is the centre of government and where the cabinet will meet and using regulars to guard other important sites in Dublin?

 

[theirishdreamer]

hmm

Wolfe_Tone your picking a good topic but your using very unrealistic situations and political decisions entirely inconsitant with OTL Irish policies and the political system, personally id advise you to go off and do some research in the time before jumping into such an ambitious project as P&S.
Off the top of my head issues I see are;
- a powerful "insurgency", im not even going to argue it, but OTL any attacks on the government got broken so fast that the IRA never attempted them again after the 30's.
- the President of all people (edit misstated ) been invited by the Cabinet? The position is a powerless one usually given to noentities or for with a usefulness abroad individual - the government do not "consult" one.
- the Dail actually been fully attended? Really? Having worked there you now how hard it is to do that.
- The Rangers? The Defence forces dont work like that. Theres policies and procedures in place and in the threat of war or attack theres predesignated areas for each Minister (theres a bunker in Athone for example)

Sorry to be negative, your writing style is good and I like the appeal of the scenario but I just think your using a very different Ireland than actually existed OTL at that period. For example in 81' we agreed with the British
The Strategic Importance of Ireland to the UK in Times of War
Essentially it states;
> In event of nuclear war Irish neutrality is out the window and involves full cooperation with surviving UK & Nato forces (after any exchange was main idea)
> 500,000 were estimated as eligible for military service and would armed and integrated with surviving UK forces for "policing" duties in the Republic and NI & UK mainland
> Ireland would receive warning through Belfast Group Control (Lisburn) or in operable Southern Sector Control (Bath)
> Discussions re relocation of UK C&C structures to Ireland
> Targets lists re Ireland & impact of fallout (Shannon for example)

 

[sparky42]

I came on here to tell a story based on a topic I've been thinking about for a long time. I didn't come on here to argue with people. I think the comment about Irish attitudes to security issues is bang on the mark. Just a few days ago the papers were up in arms about a 4meuro missile system (out of a 40BILLION euro budget) designed to shoot down aircraft. Now the populace won't let the state buy fighter jets, so if a hyjacked jet comes from the western approches and heads towards one of those nuclear plants on the British coast we have nothing to intercept it with, and going through channels to allow the RAF to do it would kill vital time. So they got this missile system instead, and they reckon it will be enough. The jets would have cost between 200-500million, the missile system cost just 4...and they were still complaining.
Now if that plane slammed into a reactor and there was a new Chernobyl the very same people would be complaining that no plans or preparation was made. I've been in politics since I was a kid I've had this debate with members of the public and the political establishment over and over and over, ''we don't need that stuff because it will never happen'' is a near universal attitude.

As to the story....
Their job is counter-insurgency...and an insurgency was happening...it seemed like a no brainier to me to use them.

We'll just have to respectfully disagree.

Not talking about the general population, I'm talking about the Irish members of the board who in general are in favour of more spending and more deployment and usage of the Defence Forces.

In terms of this I would point out that there is no coherent plan for this EPO to work off of with no White Paper. As such I'd see the Army making the running of the defence policy as historical they have the primacy so would dictate the policies of the Defence Forces (sure as hell the Minister of the day wouldn't have a clue). We did at this point have an air force as small as it is, though there are more than a few issues trying to get even obsolete aircraft (such as the willingness for anyone to give up said airframes with WW3 on the horizon), basing, training, supporting, manpower (the navy and air corps reserves aren't going to add any huge amount to the numbers)... I'd see the army demanding new transport helicopters to replace the antiquated ones we had before them allowing the Air Corps buy even trainer type jets (and make a good case for security and support operations).

The point about the Gardaí, you already have the detectives with Uzi's and body armour deployed across the nation without P&S, if at this stage you have the sourcing, training and equipping of the rank and file with firearms and body armour, what have the more elite units of the Gardaí been doing? The ERU are tasked with counter subversion and insurgency operations, they train with the rangers and share facilities and equipment to them and would have had similar numbers to the rangers, why ignore them?

As for the Counter Insurgency capabilities... it's the 80's in Ireland the whole bloody army is trained in Counter Insurgency operations, it's their primary mission.

 

[Wolf_Tone]

I'm sorry to bang on about this but IIRC regular Irish troops were used to support the police during The Troubles. Now if we planned to use regular and TA troops on KP duty, why wouldn't Ireland? Is the fire-discipline of the Irish Army that bad compared to ours?

However it's your story and if you feel that the rangers are the best unit to use then that's what you should go with. At the end of the day you are the author.
If I may suggest a compromise, how about using rangers to protect the Government Buildings since that is the centre of government and where the cabinet will meet and using regulars to guard other important sites in Dublin?

The fact that military were used to back up the police when dealing with subversives just demonstrates why we would have them doing it during this situation. So we actually agree military would be used, so the only disagreement is why use special forces rather than regulars, and I've answerd that three times now, because they are specifically trained for counter-insurgency...and this was an insurgency.
We can go around in circles with this all day.

Rangers were only at that one particular site for that specific reason, I'm not suggesting they are the only military on the streets.

Wolfe_Tone your picking a good topic but your using very unrealistic situations and political decisions entirely inconsitant with OTL Irish policies and the political system, personally id advise you to go off and do some research in the time before jumping into such an ambitious project as P&S.

Off the top of my head issues I see are;
- a powerful "insurgency", im not even going to argue it, but OTL any attacks on the government got broken so fast that the IRA never attempted them again after the 30's.

The IRA had plans for it in the 70s and 80s right around this time, it was something the state was utterly terrified of it's one of the reasons the rangers were created in the first place.
In addition, you have to stop basing your perceptions on what happened in real history and remember the radical change in mindset that would come with imminent nuclear war. They assumed the govt was going to throw it's lot in with NATO and that would mean nuclear attacks and the death of the nation, so in their eyes they had nothing to loose by trying the attack, and everything to gain, since they could change policy as the new government...these are people who thought their council, because of their twisted view of history, was the legitimate government of the state and the one in leinster house were illegitimate usurpers.

- the President of all people (edit misstated ) been invited by the Cabinet? The position is a powerless one usually given to noentities or for with a usefulness abroad individual - the government do not "consult" one.

The position is not powerless (that's a lazy but common misconception) it has very important reserve powers.
I did not say they consulted him ANYWHERE that is the second time someone has accused me of that very thing that I never even wrote...are you actually reading what I write or just skimming it?

I've said three times (how many times am I going to have to repeat the same things here??) that he was invited:

1. So they were all on the same page
2. So he could quickly approve things because missiles could be flying any second. Contrary to them being powerless his signature is required for all bills to pass into law, and he could, if he had misunderstood the gravity of the situation, delayed things referring it to the supreme court etc Having him in the room allows him to fully appreciate how urgent it is.

- the Dail actually been fully attended? Really? Having worked there you now how hard it is to do that.

It's just a photo mate...but I'll bite.
I've been involved in politics for my entire life so I do know what I'm talking about in this situation. There is full attendance with every single vote, and in this case they were having a vote on a critical peice of legislation. The only time there are a lot of empty seats is during debates on second or third stages of bills, only the key players attend these debates, the rest are working in their offices with the monitor on listening to whats happening. They are all within 3 minutes of the chamber even when not in it because they have to be there when the vote bell comes on.

That is another lazy but common misconception.

- The Rangers? The Defence forces dont work like that. Theres policies and procedures in place and in the threat of war or attack theres predesignated areas for each Minister (theres a bunker in Athone for example)

I don't even know what this point means.
The defense foreces don't work like that? They don't report for duty when the exact situation they regularly train for comes up? Come on..
A bunker? They can't just go run to a bunker they have to make decisions and get prepared. They won't even have the power to react to any war without first declaring a state of emergency and that's what they were doing there.
They can't just run to a bunker and hope everything works out they have to pull out emergency plans and start issuing orders to the state apparatus, plan how things will function post strike, disperse key govt staff, decide on evacuations etc etc etc

Sorry to be negative, your writing style is good and I like the appeal of the scenario but I just think your using a very different Ireland than actually existed OTL at that period.

Are you serious?
Of course it's different its an alternate history. Things change, there is about to be a third world war that may go nuclear, attitudes and approches are going to be diffrent.

> In event of nuclear war Irish neutrality is out the window and involves full cooperation with surviving UK & Nato forces (after any exchange was main idea)

First of all that assumption would be pretty stupid, you clearly don't understand how deep the commitment was among all parties to neutrality in fact I was worried I was being a bit unrealistic even suggesting the Dail vote was close.
Second, after the exchange indeed, which is why I said the policy would be reviewed every 30 days I mean there is what...the third thing I'm being criticized for that I didn't actually say?
Also the idea that Ireland would voluntarily merge with the UK after desperately fighting for independence for 100s of years is just pure nonsense. There might be pooling of manpower to a large extent yes, lot's of EU-esque pooling of resources out of sheer pragmatism, but that's where it would stop.

> Ireland would receive warning through Belfast Group Control (Lisburn) or in operable Southern Sector Control (Bath)
> Discussions re relocation of UK C&C structures to Ireland
> Targets lists re Ireland & impact of fallout (Shannon for example)

I find the idea of Shannon Airport being nuked quite absurd tbh, a few carefully targeted missiles from a bear or backfire bomber would take care of that airport without needing to resort to nukes but again I HAVE NOT GOT TO THAT POINT YET.


It's far too exausting to do it like this, for every update I'm going to have to spend an hour fighting off attacks on it, so far I've had to write more defending the story than the story itself and the reactions been universally negative.
I think it best that I leave this to others since the receptions been so frosty. I'm sure admin can delete the thread.

 

[theirishdreamer]

hmm

I'm not going to bother with a proper long-winded reply then since your getting the thread taken down. Im sorry to see you take it down by the way, don't let our "negativity" as you see it put you down, its meant to constructive criticism or debating if we believe differently to you.

 

[Wolf_Tone]

It's easier to throw rocks at the house than to build one. I'm sick enough with energy low enough already without getting bogged down in circular arguments with strangers. I decided to do this little project as a diversion from my energy draining normality not to attract more of it.
It's been pointed out to me that I have most of the story already written out in word so I'll post what I've already wrote then probably leave it at that, I got as far as the actual attack and it's immediate aftermath.

If you want to make constructive suggestions great, PM me with your thoughts, I welcome them
However, I'm not gonna bother getting bogged down over minor plot points pulled out and tortuously raked over the coals two updates after they've ceased being part of the story, if you would have put X army unit in instead of Y great...write your own story.
If you think you can do a better story, I invite you to write one. Set it in 1990 or something then you've no limits on what you can write. You think you know how to do it better then go ahead, shock me, amaze me. Hell write a P&S one thats so good mines struck from offical cannon in the face of it's sheer quality. If you can write one better than me I will take my hat off to you. I just doubt one being better or worse will turn on what army unit is shooting aging commies or what meeting the Presidents in.

 

[theirishdreamer]

hmm

Wolfe_Tone, of all the posters I made a grand total of 1 post bringing up issues I had so and the second one was basically encouraging you to continue. I'm afraid this is an open forum and if you post a TL like this, this level of querying is fairly normal, especially on a P&S thread, hell people said way worse when that started. People disagree here (alot, OMG do they ) on pretty much everything from Sealion,to Ponies, to was Stalin a bad person so I will warn comments are common baring you put up a big disclaimer asking us all not to voice our opinions.

I actually have my own TL by the way, which consumes way too much free time , so I don't pretend to be some sort of AH genius or anything as Ive changed stuff in it based on more informed posters at one or two stages after they commented on the thread. If want to ask someone about writing "an amazing TL, etc" theres plenty of Turtledove winning TL authors wandering around; all whose TLs are better than mine. But id encourage you to ease off in the sarcasm department, nobody here was/is/had any intention of been anything other than positive to you as a author.

 

[sparky42]

Wolfe_Tone, of all the posters I made a grand total of 1 post bringing up issues I had so and the second one was basically encouraging you to continue. I'm afraid this is an open forum and if you post a TL like this, this level of querying is fairly normal, especially on a P&S thread, hell people said way worse when that started. People disagree here (alot, OMG do they ) on pretty much everything from Sealion,to Ponies, to was Stalin a bad person so I will warn comments are common baring you put up a big disclaimer asking us all not to voice our opinions.

I actually have my own TL by the way, which consumes way too much free time , so I don't pretend to be some sort of AH genius or anything as Ive changed stuff in it based on more informed posters at one or two stages after they commented on the thread. If want to ask someone about writing "an amazing TL, etc" theres plenty of Turtledove winning TL authors wandering around; all whose TLs are better than mine. But id encourage you to ease off in the sarcasm department, nobody here was/is/had any intention of been anything other than positive to you as a author.

Pretty much this, there are threads by well known figures here where people have debated virtually everything from hardware, to people to results of battles, to development of nations, some of which have gone on for pages and pages particularly here in the 1900 section. It's not meant as negative, and I'm sorry you took it that way. Like dreamer I've also written a bit of a TL, and I can tell you that pretty much any post will generate discussion and debate, hopefully that can be taken as constructive. But I'll step out and remain out if that makes you happy to post.