Protect and Survive: A Timeline

[Bernard Woolley]

I agree in toto.

If the CMHQ and AFHQ are still operating it is pretty clear that they have no knowledge of the local coup, otherwise they would have taken some sort of action. If the Controller is put out of action then the next senior civilian should have taken over.

If I were the Lieutenant I would try and get a message to higher headquarters. Something simple like 'Captain/Major X has taken over control of County H.Q from civilian authorities. Request instructions.'

 

[Mario Rossi]

If the CMHQ and AFHQ are still operating it is pretty clear that they have no knowledge of the local coup, otherwise they would have taken some sort of action. If the Controller is put out of action then the next senior civilian should have taken over.

If I were the Lieutenant I would try and get a message to higher headquarters. Something simple like 'Captain/Major X has taken over control of County H.Q from civilian authorities. Request instructions.'

Exactly; the fact that The Officer and his faction have set up this absurd operation within hours was a factor in enable it to operate with impunity so far.

 

[Macragge1]

So the army have taken over the whole of the NE Region? What's happened to the Regional Commissioner at Shipton and his deputy at Hexam? I can believe a local take-over at county level, but deposing a Minister of the Crown, I don't think so. I don't see the generals at the AFHQs at Ouston and Imphal Barracks going along with a coup unless both Shipton and Hexam are gone. Even at a local level the County Military HQ must be out of action if the officer can get away with this.

If the officer at County HQ continues as he is I suspect that the local AFHQ will be sending the RMP to arrest him. Technically the Lieutenant would probably be within his rights to relieve the Officer and place him under close arrest both for mounting a coup, or technically a mutiny and for issuing what are clearly illegal orders, even under the Emergency Powers.

It is nice to see that at least some people still have a conscience.

If the CMHQ and AFHQ are still operating it is pretty clear that they have no knowledge of the local coup, otherwise they would have taken some sort of action. If the Controller is put out of action then the next senior civilian should have taken over.

If I were the Lieutenant I would try and get a message to higher headquarters. Something simple like 'Captain/Major X has taken over control of County H.Q from civilian authorities. Request instructions.'

This is of course the big problem; the Officer hasn't taken over the whole of the North East, but he's in power effectively over the Newcastle area (at more or less county level) - This was a typo I've now fixed - I was meant to say Newcastle rather than North East Region; I have an annoying habit of conflating the two. So, you know, apologies for that.

What must be remembered is that, even with ISIS, he is actually fairly popular within some circles (the army especially) for overturning the rule banning infant feeding, which is seen to justify his less...sensible measures.

It's probably not clear but it's only actually been about three or four days since the coup took place - you're absolutely right in saying that Hexham and Shipton have been kept in the dark; otherwise, as you say, there'd near enough be Chieftains turning up at the Civic Centre.

Unfortunately, the Officer isn't stupid; he knows that, with the Civic Centre, he more or less controls communication with the rest of the army; at least for a while - the story he is putting out is that the Controller has been killed by dissident elements, and he is briefly and temporarily taking control whilst a civilian successor is found and briefed. He has also hand-picked the police motorcycle despatch riders that occasionally get sent around to make sure that they'll stay onside.

The Lieutenant (god, I hate trying to spell that word) would be well within his right to just arrest the Officer for mutiny, but hasn't just yet for a couple of reasons; the main one being that, especially surrounding the Officer, support from other soldiers and men is strong - if the Lieutenant tried to walk into the Civic Centre and arrest him, there's a fair chance (especially given the Officer's state) that he himself would end up getting shot.

The other problem stems from the fact that the Lieutenant doesn't want to get the higher authorities involved - he knows that if the RMP or whoever get involved, the Officer will be shot dead - as has been hinted at though, the Lieutenant views the Officer as something of a father figure following the attacks; he's unable, or unwilling to see how badly he's gone wrong - so he's being a bit naughty too. Therefore, he's trying to keep it 'in-house', so to speak - this is the double edged sword of his good conscience - he is desperate for a bloodless solution; the police and others within the group are tolerating this as a) they want a military man onside just in case and b) the Lieutenant risked his own life to extract the Controller.

Outside of Newcastle, things are progressing, for the time being, as if nothing big has happened. Deep down, its probable that the Officer knows he's exploiting an ever narrowing window of opportunity before someone stops him; at this point, however, he just can't care.

Make no mistake though; once the outside world notices they're going to come down, and come down hard.

 

[Mario Rossi]

Make no mistake though; once the outside world notices they're going to come down, and come down hard.

There you go...

 

[Macragge1]

I wonder (may have missed it) if any steam locomotives have been commandeered and put back into action on the rail network?

Smashing update.

There was a bit of discussion about this earlier - it's a nice, romantic idea and it'd be lovely to see it happen. Indeed, there were rumours of a 'Strategic Steam Reserve' - a tunnel walled up somewhere full of old locos waiting for a war - sadly, this turns out to be just rumour. In theory, steam locomotives could (and may) get used, but the problem is quite dull - the railway infrastructure no longer contains all the watering/coaling points and the like which would be needed to run steam - this, naturally, complicates things.

I'll preface this by saying that

1) Yours is one of two timelines that I return to regularly.

2) I am a big fan of the old RPG Twilight 2000, so this is lots of fun.

But,

Casettes don't skip. Records skip. Casettes may fade or warble, but they absolutely do not skip.

My mistake - cassettes are just slightly before my time, I'm afraid - gonna have to fudge that one - just pretend I wrote 'warble' or something - thanks for pointing it out.

@ Thedarkmaster & Lemon flavored: yes, from sources I have, I understand that the Vatican had its own fallout bunker under St. Peter's. We do not yet know nothing of the fate of Italy, but in my estimation Rome was a target for many different reasons and all valid. I do not know what the bunker could withstand and for how long there were stocks to survive within it. I can assume that the highest levels of the Catholic Church in every country have tried to get in touch with His Holiness and that, except head shots individual and not easily predictable, all ecclesiastical authorities are waiting for some news from the Vatican itself.

If I were the Pope, I'd quietly head to Brazil the moment war looked inevitable - in Protect and Survive, a similar thing may have happened...

 

[iainbhx]

If I were the Pope, I'd quietly head to Brazil the moment war looked inevitable - in Protect and Survive, a similar thing may have happened...

First, great update, I could almost feel the anxiety and insanity.

I can't quite see John Paul II cutting and running.

I understand that in the event of the death of the Pope and the Camerlengo that there may have been an emergency backup which fell to the Archbishop of Rio de Janeiro one Eugênio de Araújo Sales, he is of the conservative but pro human rights section of the Church.

Steam, btw, may be usable in South Wales, there were still some steam colliery operations - but they wouldn't be able to go far, also, as Cardiff copped it, many of the lines will be cut off. However, there's always West Wales Anthracite

 

[Bernard Woolley]

I do think that it is only a matter of time before news reaches Shipton, and the CMHQ and AFHQ that something is not right at the Civic Centre. I'm pretty sure that within a few more days enquiries will start to come in from higher H.Q, both civil and military. Since there are tensions between the police and army it's also possible that news of the coup will make its way to the Regional Police Commander.

The ideal situation would be if a medical officer were to diagnose the Officer with some sort of complaint. I do also think even his loyalists won't support him for ever, especially since he has blatantly tortured an innocent man and that will pretty quickly become known amongst all the soldiers under his command.

Small nitpick: 'service revolver'? Shouldn't he have an L9A1 Browning Hi-Power?

 

[Sir Chaos]

If I were the Pope, I'd quietly head to Brazil the moment war looked inevitable - in Protect and Survive, a similar thing may have happened...

If you were the pope, you´d trust in the Almighty - if he wanted to keep you safe, he´d keep you safe wherever you were, and if he wanted to kill you, he´d kill you whatever you did to save yourself. A pope who takes his office and his faith seriously, as JP2 did, practically has no other option than to remain in Rome and provide what solace he can to the faithful in such fearful times. I imagine that the nuclear strike, if it doesn´t arrive in the middle of the night, finds him in church, praying for god´s assistance.

I can, however, see him making sure that a sufficient number of cardinals retire to safe places to secure the continuity of the church if the Vatican is destroyed and he is killed.
If you want a nice "touch" to the story, you can have him dissolve the Swiss Guards, as the impending destruction is beyond their capacity to protect him, and he does not want these brave young men to sacrifice themselves pointlessly.

In any case, I envision a sort schism, as cardinals in different parts of the world are out of communication with both the Vatican and cardinals in other parts of the world, and each group elects its own pope, if perhaps only pro tempore, with the trouble beginning when they get back into communication with each other and there is no procedure to figure out who has the superior authority.

 

[Mario Rossi]

I also propose another idea: the Vatican, during the TTW in order to avoid or at least reduce the chaos that would follow the destruction of the Holy See, could establish, perhaps with the collaboration of the Italian government, a sort of channel of communication (radio I'm led to believe) with a few trusted members of the higher clergy in South America.

At a time when the first atomic had begun to ply the skies of Europe, the Pope would send his resignation to the South American representative, who, bolstered by a procedure authorized by His Holiness in person, with authority could appoint a new Pope, or at least the figure of a ruler in waiting for a new conclave.

Maybe we are talking about issues very influenced by our religious beliefs, but I think John Paul II would have sacrificed himself for leaving a significant moral testament of Catholic Christianity.

What do you think?

 

[Sir Chaos]

I also propose another idea: the Vatican, during the TTW in order to avoid or at least reduce the chaos that would follow the destruction of the Holy See, could establish, perhaps with the collaboration of the Italian government, a sort of channel of communication (radio I'm led to believe) with a few trusted members of the higher clergy in South America.

At a time when the first atomic had begun to ply the skies of Europe, the Pope would send his resignation to the South American representative, who, bolstered by a procedure authorized by His Holiness in person, with authority could appoint a new Pope, or at least the figure of a ruler in waiting for a new conclave.

Why so complicated - especially since those first nukes might interfere with the radio connection and scramble the message.

I´m thinking that, when the nukes start flying, the South American clergy won´t need the pope to tell them that it happened. He could leave instructions with the South Americans that, if they have not had word from him within, say, one week after the nuclear strikes, they should assume him to be dead and elect his successor from among the surviving cardinals.
If there is the time and money during the period leading up to the war, perhaps parts of the church bureaucracy, the archives, the artwork etc would also be moved to safe places - if perhaps only as far as Castel Gandolfo and other rural locations.

Maybe we are talking about issues very influenced by our religious beliefs, but I think John Paul II would have sacrificed himself for leaving a significant moral testament of Catholic Christianity.

What do you think?

I agree. It would be the ultimate statement that he has faith in god and the afterlife, that when the hammer fell, he did not run off to save his mortal coil. He could have saved himself, but many millions of the faithful could not, and he might prefer to share their fate, anyway.
Aside from what our beliefs say - I´m an atheist anyway, although I grew up Catholic - we need to look at what JP2´s beliefs say, and I think the described behavior is perfectly in tune with that.

 

[neopeius]

My mistake - cassettes are just slightly before my time, I'm afraid - gonna have to fudge that one - just pretend I wrote 'warble' or something - thanks for pointing it out.

*grins* It's one of the few times your age shew. I grew up during the 2nd phase of the Cold War, and it was a scary time, indeed, so I really appreciate your timeline.

I just went to March Air Reserve Base where they have a lot of the Cold Warrior planes preserved. It's an awesome sight. A bit spooky, like your timeline

 

[Bernard Woolley]

I seem to remember from history that in times when the Papacy was in danger the Pope has been evacuated to a safer location outside Rome. That would suggest that there is precedent for an evacuation.

Perhaps JPII would remember the dictum that 'God helps those who help themselves'? If he does nothing but stay in the Vatican and pray then of course God would let him die, if he actually does something positive then maybe God keeps him safe.
It could be argued that a dead Pope is of no use to the Faithful.

 

[Lord Brisbane]

There was a bit of discussion about this earlier - it's a nice, romantic idea and it'd be lovely to see it happen. Indeed, there were rumours of a 'Strategic Steam Reserve' - a tunnel walled up somewhere full of old locos waiting for a war - sadly, this turns out to be just rumour. In theory, steam locomotives could (and may) get used, but the problem is quite dull - the railway infrastructure no longer contains all the watering/coaling points and the like which would be needed to run steam - this, naturally, complicates things.

True, and most of the colliery steam would have been scrapped by this time anyway I think, which if they hadn't could have meant they could be useful in a local area at least, but yeah the infrastructure isn't there, and I doubt there would be any lorry tankers available for water (used for supplying military/civilians or other purposes).

Either that or get horses (feed though?) hauling wagons for locall purposes or I wonder if there were any contingency plans for converting passenger rolling-stock for hospitals etc?

 

[iainbhx]

True, and most of the colliery steam would have been scrapped by this time anyway I think, which if they hadn't could have meant they could be useful in a local area at least, but yeah the infrastructure isn't there, and I doubt there would be any lorry tankers available for water (used for supplying military/civilians or other purposes).

You'd be surprised, NCB kept quite a lot of colliery steam going until the pits shut. Partly because in some cases the lines were so unsuitable for larger engines. Being fond of steam and based in South West Wales at the period of the POD, I remember visiting four or five sites during my first year to take photos. I think other areas may have been more diesels.

They could do limited runs of about 25-50 miles (depending on the type) without any problems.

 

[Lord Brisbane]

You'd be surprised, NCB kept quite a lot of colliery steam going until the pits shut. Partly because in some cases the lines were so unsuitable for larger engines. Being fond of steam and based in South West Wales at the period of the POD, I remember visiting four or five sites during my first year to take photos. I think other areas may have been more diesels.

They could do limited runs of about 25-50 miles (depending on the type) without any problems.

What sort of tanker wagons did BR have around that time that could be used to carry water (or converted to carry), and I'm sure there would be plenty of open wagons about that could be used for a reserve supply of coal (then theres always wood/timber if that hasn't been stripped already). Mind you, it would probably have to have a secure escort in-case people tried to seize the coal for themselves.

Still, it might be a useful delivery system for essential supplies, like coal to further regions than would be possible and save fuel oil for the military and essential services. Some of the smaller industrial diesels could be useful as well as the Departmental locos like the class 98. Speeders (often used for track inspection etc) could be useful for maintaining contact as well. It would be kind of ironic if Brush Traction's HS4000 'Kestrel' which was sold to the Soviet Union in 1971 somehow survived the nuclear conflict..

 

[Macragge1]

If you were the pope, you´d trust in the Almighty - if he wanted to keep you safe, he´d keep you safe wherever you were, and if he wanted to kill you, he´d kill you whatever you did to save yourself. A pope who takes his office and his faith seriously, as JP2 did, practically has no other option than to remain in Rome and provide what solace he can to the faithful in such fearful times. I imagine that the nuclear strike, if it doesn´t arrive in the middle of the night, finds him in church, praying for god´s assistance.

I can, however, see him making sure that a sufficient number of cardinals retire to safe places to secure the continuity of the church if the Vatican is destroyed and he is killed.
If you want a nice "touch" to the story, you can have him dissolve the Swiss Guards, as the impending destruction is beyond their capacity to protect him, and he does not want these brave young men to sacrifice themselves pointlessly.

In any case, I envision a sort schism, as cardinals in different parts of the world are out of communication with both the Vatican and cardinals in other parts of the world, and each group elects its own pope, if perhaps only pro tempore, with the trouble beginning when they get back into communication with each other and there is no procedure to figure out who has the superior authority.

I also propose another idea: the Vatican, during the TTW in order to avoid or at least reduce the chaos that would follow the destruction of the Holy See, could establish, perhaps with the collaboration of the Italian government, a sort of channel of communication (radio I'm led to believe) with a few trusted members of the higher clergy in South America.

At a time when the first atomic had begun to ply the skies of Europe, the Pope would send his resignation to the South American representative, who, bolstered by a procedure authorized by His Holiness in person, with authority could appoint a new Pope, or at least the figure of a ruler in waiting for a new conclave.

Maybe we are talking about issues very influenced by our religious beliefs, but I think John Paul II would have sacrificed himself for leaving a significant moral testament of Catholic Christianity.

What do you think?

To be honest, I really hadn't given the Pope much thought - rather than sending him to South America, I'm now of the opinion that his staying in Rome is a) more probable and b) more dramatic - naturally, there'd be an element of pragmatism and someone would have to be set up as a successor - I still reckon Brazil would be the best place for this.

I do like the idea of the Swiss Guards getting dissolved just before the bombs - thanking them for hundreds of years of service, and then they get far enough out to see St Peter's burn - that is a sad touch.

True, and most of the colliery steam would have been scrapped by this time anyway I think, which if they hadn't could have meant they could be useful in a local area at least, but yeah the infrastructure isn't there, and I doubt there would be any lorry tankers available for water (used for supplying military/civilians or other purposes).

Either that or get horses (feed though?) hauling wagons for locall purposes or I wonder if there were any contingency plans for converting passenger rolling-stock for hospitals etc?

There's a bit of horses pulling wagons, but, with the scarcity of feed, it's often more economical just to get a few 'volunteers' to do the legwork (I think I made a reference to something being 'V-powered'?)

I'd be fascinated to know whether there were any plans to convert rolling stock into hospital trains - it certainly wouldn't surprise me.

As an aside, that reminds me of a deleted scene in 28 Days Later (brilliant film) where they find a deserted Tube car thats' been converted into an ad hoc hospital train - it lacked the drama of the other scenes but personally, I really liked it just as another touch of how badly things had gone.

Anyone else seen it, by the way? As far as post-apocalyptic stuff goes, it's like a love letter to all the 70s BBC stuff like Survivors and Day of the Triffids, but it also revitalised the genre.

It also has a British Army Officer who goes insane, I've just realised - oh well.

I do think that it is only a matter of time before news reaches Shipton, and the CMHQ and AFHQ that something is not right at the Civic Centre. I'm pretty sure that within a few more days enquiries will start to come in from higher H.Q, both civil and military. Since there are tensions between the police and army it's also possible that news of the coup will make its way to the Regional Police Commander.

The ideal situation would be if a medical officer were to diagnose the Officer with some sort of complaint. I do also think even his loyalists won't support him for ever, especially since he has blatantly tortured an innocent man and that will pretty quickly become known amongst all the soldiers under his command.

Small nitpick: 'service revolver'? Shouldn't he have an L9A1 Browning Hi-Power?

The Regional Police Commander knows about it; he's one of the ones who's pitched in with the Lieutenant's plan; some aren't so happy about keeping the whole business under wraps, though - the Commander has sent a couple of despatch riders south (secretly) but there's been no word from them yet.

The loyalists are starting to see the real side of the Officer, but this is a dilemma - naturally, they support him less, but they become more fearful of him - sadly they've got other stuff to worry about as well.

About the revolver - In-story reason; He lost his HP and had to scrounge this from one of the Police/Reserve arms supplies

Actual reason - revolvers just look cooler in my opinion, so it's a bit of an aesthetic thing; sometimes I just can't resist these little touches.

Also http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iv4CuIIspdE

This song is really syncing with the timeline's vibe right now (bonus points if you can guess where I found it)

 

[Bernard Woolley]

Checking my War Plan UK the RPC at the time was Chief Constable S. E. Bailey. Hopefully he'll have relocated from Ponteland before the attack. The Regional Military Commander would have been Brigadier Spreckling (or his successor) at Ouston.

If he had a revolver can I request that it's a Webbley Mk.VI in .455 please? That and the L9A1 are my two favourite classic handguns.

I've seen both 28 Days Later and the sequel. They're both good films. Really remind me of the various versions of The Day of the Triffids and there is a bit of the book The Death of Grass in there too.

IIRC the RCT and RAMC operated hospital trains in West Germany, but there don't seem to have been plans to use them in the UK. Even the mobile BR control trains were effectively gone by the '80s; one was in a walled up shed disconnected from the rest of the rail network; BR being given permission to sell them off in '79. IIRC one preserved railway has an ex-mobile control coach, or an old hospital train coach, but I can't remember which.

EDIT:

This song is really syncing with the timeline's vibe right now (bonus points if you can guess where I found it)

The trailer for Battle: Los Angeles?

 

[Lord Brisbane]

There's a bit of horses pulling wagons, but, with the scarcity of feed, it's often more economical just to get a few 'volunteers' to do the legwork (I think I made a reference to something being 'V-powered'?)

I wonder if they are working to the ratio the Japanese did in Burma, "one fourteenth of an elephant"?

If he had a revolver can I request that it's a Webbley Mk.VI in .455 please?

Wouldn't it more appropriate to be the .38 version since that would have been the major version produced during the war?

Actually, how are the police managing to find replacements post-attack because there numbers would be depleted by attrition? Is there any recruitment system or is it pretty much ad-hoc? I wonder if they considered something akin to the structure of that used by the USC which was disbanded in 1970, such the A,B and C Specials?

 

[Bernard Woolley]

Wouldn't it more appropriate to be the .38 version since that would have been the major version produced during the war?

Possibly, but the Webbley Mk.VI is way cooler than either the Enfield No.1, or the Webbley Mk.IV. The Smith & Wesson Model 10 would be my second choice for revolver.

Actually, how are the police managing to find replacements post-attack because there numbers would be depleted by attrition? Is there any recruitment system or is it pretty much ad-hoc? I wonder if they considered something akin to the structure of that used by the USC which was disbanded in 1970, such the A,B and C Specials?

The plan was to do it through impressment of civilians. During the TTW phase there would also have been a greater recruitment of Specials along with the retainment and recall of those about to, or recently retired. Those at police colleges would have found their courses abruptly ended.
The armed forces will also use impressment to replace losses, the Army and Air Force Acts allow for conscription in an emergency, which this certainly is.

I suspect the system would work something like this - the Regional Police Commander, or the Regional Military Commander decides that they need x number of new personnel to replace losses. So the first x number of able bodied men (or women) who turn up at the Feeding Stations are probably told: 'you are now a police officer/soldier. Follow me to collect your equipment, and btw you're ration will now be higher'.
I'm pretty sure that the promise of extra food will soften the blow of being a 'pressed man'. Hell, I'd be happy to become a copper, or squaddie under the circumstances of this TL.

 

[Mario Rossi]

I seem to remember from history that in times when the Papacy was in danger the Pope has been evacuated to a safer location outside Rome. That would suggest that there is precedent for an evacuation.

Perhaps JPII would remember the dictum that 'God helps those who help themselves'? If he does nothing but stay in the Vatican and pray then of course God would let him die, if he actually does something positive then maybe God keeps him safe.
It could be argued that a dead Pope is of no use to the Faithful.

Jan, your claims are not at all far-fetched, but I think, though a pope in life could be materially useful to the faithful, a Pope martyr transmit to the faithful an appropriate example of the willingness to sacrifice for a man who is the vicar of Christ on earth for his Catholics.

Still, I would not look like a fundamentalist, or anything like that, I just say that John Paul II seemed to me a man quite aware of his mission and capable to perform an act so significant even at the expense of his personal safety.

After all, as we say in Italy, "Morto un Papa, se ne fa sempre un altro".