Protect and Survive: A Timeline

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: After 1900' started by Macragge1, Aug 20, 2010.

  1. Fenrisúlfr Worse than madness, I am sane.

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    I've read every bit of this thread three times. It really is one of my favourites on the site. On the first few pages there is a discussion about what sort of song best represents this timeline, well I've been with the thread for a while but have been a lurker so I feel it might be OK if I post my suggestion now.

    Threads - Portishead:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6l8qQKdmvE

    While the timeline ended optimistically I was so sure it would end in horror I think this song represents it well. Imagine those droning sounds echoing over a ruined remnants of a nuclear city scape.
     
  2. Lemon flavoured British Miami Dolphins fan

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    Reading the bit at the end with the Librarian and the Constable again, reminded me of this song (which is a huge anachronism for this TL, since it came out last year, but oh well lol):

    Karine Polwart - Tinsel Show
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXnDr1lTC3o
     
  3. kspence92 Well-Known Member

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    Does anyone have a list of Soviet targets in Scotland ?

    Id imagine Rosyth would be taken out, along with the Forth Bridges. Leuchers and Lossimouth would be gone, as would Edinburgh and Glasgow. Probably Aberdeen as well due to the oil industry. Not sure if Dundee, Perth or Inverness were targets or not ?
     
  4. JN1 Has been called the C word on Twitter

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    From memory the military targets were:
    Rosyth (including both the dockyard and MHQ Pitreavie)
    Faslane
    Coulport
    Holy Loch
    Thurso

    RAFs Leuchars and Lossiemouth are canon as having survived.

    City wise Edinburgh, Dundee and Glasgow were all hit. Aberdeen was never mentioned, IIRC, but Perth became the main administrative centre for Scotland post-war. Inverness survived and became the main settlement in the northern half of Scotland.
     
  5. Unknown Member

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    Actually, Aberdeen was mentioned, JN1. The bomb missed it, IIRC, and it survived (probably becoming the largest city in Scotland, IMO).
     
  6. Hoisin Fried Beef Chicken Well-Known Member

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    The greatest thing on this site has finished. To quote Jim Morrison, this is the end. Round of applause to Macragge and the other Protectors and Survivalists!
     
  7. Ogrebear Well-Known Member

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  8. JN1 Has been called the C word on Twitter

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    It was written as part of an exercise scenario, so whether it was the actual speech, or not, I'm not sure we can say for certain. Depending on circumstances and the time of year what HM said might well have been different. The reference to Prince Andrew might have been altered, for example.

    More interesting, IMVHO, are the nuclear briefing documents prepared in case Labour, or the Alliance won in '83 and there was a new PM.
     
  9. kspence92 Well-Known Member

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    If this had happened for real, what kind of yield would the weapons that target military bases have ? For the Soviets to have targeted both Pitrevie and Roysth Dockyard with separate weapons they must have had a fairly small yield since both places are a five, maybe ten minute drive from one another. Wouldnt one slightly larger weapon take out both ?
     
  10. Fenrisúlfr Worse than madness, I am sane.

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    I've always just assumed 300 kt per un-hardened target but I can't remember where I got that idea.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2013
  11. JN1 Has been called the C word on Twitter

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    Yes, but there is no guarantee of that. Once a country has more then a minimum number of nuclear weapons its planning staff will look for additional targets, even if they might be covered by being close to another target. A good example was the fact that the Americans targeted the man who would have been in charge of Soviet transportation and his deputy, despite the fact that they worked in the same building!

    From A Soviet target planner's perspective there is no guarantee that the weapon targeted on the dockyard will destroy the bunker at Pitreavie, so if they have a weapon available why not hit them both? Moreover a single large weapon might fail and leave a target uncovered, while it is more likely that one of the two smaller bombs will function.
     
  12. Kidblast Well-Known Member

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    I think people forget how militarized the white population was during the 1980s. Think Swiss levels of militarization.

    South Africa had compulsory military service for all white men in the 1980s starting at age 16!! The End Conscription Campaign was a large protest movement against compulsory conscription. If the Apartheid government thought that war was imminent, there would be a massive arming of the white population, similar to Switzerland in scope. I imagine every white male over 14 would have an assault rifle, and just about every woman as well.

    My father was a farmer in South Africa, and he used to carry a pistol and a shotgun at almost all time while he was working on the farm. This was just normal practice. My mother had a weapons permit as well, and would carry a pistol at times.

    If the South African government thinks that there might be a racial uprising, every white citizen would get firearms and ammunition. I imagine the SADF would have no compunction bombing the townships with helicopter gunships and fighter jets. Remember, at this time, almost the entire Army is white.

    Whites in South Africa have the materiel and training advantage, and unlike most guerrilla wars, the two sides are very easy to tell apart. I don't think the black population would fare very well in this scenario.

    Also, I find it bizarre that the South Africa government would bomb Cape Town. Unlike other African colonies, the white population in South Africa dates back to the 1600s. The Afrikaners had no home to go back to. I think the prospect of Afrikaners blowing up Cape Town to be as plausible as Ronald Reagan nuking DC.

     
  13. tom Member

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    BTW, what was the population drop from this war?
    The Cuban Missile War timeline went from 3 billion to 2.4 billion, IIRC.
    World Almanac and Book of Facts 2013, pg 740:
    US in 1960 had 20,434 nukes, USSR had 1,605 and UK had 30.
    In 1980 US had 24,304, USSR had 30,062, UK had 350, France had 250, China had 280 and Israel had 31.
    Also, in 1984 more easily accessible natural resources had been depleted, if not exhausted.
    In addition, "old fashioned" stuff (experience, machinery, etc.) was less available than it had been in 1962.
    So I could easily see over half the human race dying.
    Am I right?
     
  14. John Farson The Good Man

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    Pretty much. Also include the collapse of the world economy and international trade, meaning a lot of countries dependent on food imports from the US and Canada (among other major agricultural producers) will be suddenly cut off from them, and you'll see famine in Africa and Asia at an unprecedented scale. And in 1984 the famine in Ethiopia was already in full swing. Only now you'll have many more and bigger Ethiopias going on all over the world.
     
  15. henno Member

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    just to add http://www.militaryphotos.net/forum...-of-mounted-(horse)-units-recent-or-old/page2
     
  16. Archangel Battery-powered Bureaucrat

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    The most unstable countries in the third world will require decades to recover to pre-war levels of development.
     
  17. Hoisin Fried Beef Chicken Well-Known Member

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  18. Archangel Battery-powered Bureaucrat

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  19. Falkenburg CMII & Bar Monthly Donor

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    Given recent events, my mind turned more to something like This.

    A different Character taking each section. Sweeping visuals over a devastated landscape. :cool:/:(

    Falkenburg
     
  20. Hörnla Well-Known Member

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    Just for fun, when I was working on the German nuke map, I also just made up numbers concerning the drop in population in the most popolous (pre-war) countries on Earth. I thoroughly guesstimated without very deep anylsis, just having in mind the general P&S-verse and toying with numbers.

    Here a few of my estimates (note that I am optimistically inclined):

    -Global population pre-war 4.85 billion
    -immediately post-war 2.21 billion
    -1990 estimates 1.66 billion (which rougly equals the global population in 1900)

    For single nations (1st number: OTL population 1985, 2nd number estimate for 1990)

    Prewar: Top12 countries in population
    -PR China: 1058million => 286million
    -India: 759million => 228million
    -Soviet Union: 278million => 29 million
    -USA: 238million => 56.5 million
    -Indonesia: 166million => 119 million
    -Brazil 137million => 104 million
    -Japan 120.8million => 14.5million
    -Bangladesh 102million => 64million
    -Pakistan 102million => 49.8 million
    -Nigeria 84.9million => 56 million
    -Germany (FRG/GDR combined) 77.7million => 3.11million
    -Mexico 76.7million => 10.8million

    A few further examples:
    Italy 56.7million => 11.3 million
    UK 56.5million => 15.3 million
    France 56.5 million => 19.2 million
    Turkey 51million => 20.4 million