Prospero's Prosperity: Spanish Habsburgs Don't Die Out 1700

[Velasco]

Well thanks, had no clue my work would inspire anyone. But yes I agree, developing all of those things are incredibility difficult to do. You have to try and guess which way to go but at the same time make sure its realistic. For me Valena and JedidiahStott have been huge helps for figuring out those areas.

Again thanks for inspiring me to try writing in this era.

I guess this is the beauty of Alternate History and writing in general - being inspired and inspiring others, in a way that pushes you to work that bit harder and produce increasingly better output. I know I would never have developed "After Actium" as far if it wasn't for the likes of NikoZnate, EdT and Jonathan Edelstein showing the way with their exceptionally well-written and well-researched offerings.

Thanks. It looks great, can't wait for more.

Thanks

 

[Valena]

For constructive criticism part - first most recent chapters.
Why do you have John Cazimir Vasa remarry? In OTL he took his brother's throne and his wife after remaining the last male in the line (he was a cardinal before coronation) and after his wife's death he abdicated and returned to Church.
So some event needs to happen to make him psychologically consider remarrying instead of abdication.
Like...one of his children surviving
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Zygmunt_Waza
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Anna_Vasa
It will be pretty interesting if it's a daughter who was prepared for nunnery survives. First, the Polish succession issue now becomes clearer and not tied to the nieces of Queen Louise-Marie Gonzaga (instead, it's husband for Maria Anna Vasa who will take the Polish crown). May lead to pretty interesting events on the East.

 

[Velasco]

For constructive criticism part - first most recent chapters.
Why do you have John Cazimir Vasa remarry? In OTL he took his brother's throne and his wife after remaining the last male in the line (he was a cardinal before coronation) and after his wife's death he abdicated and returned to Church.
So some event needs to happen to make him psychologically consider remarrying instead of abdication.
Like...one of his children surviving
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Zygmunt_Waza
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Anna_Vasa
It will be pretty interesting if it's a daughter who was prepared for nunnery survives. First, the Polish succession issue now becomes clearer and not tied to the nieces of Queen Louise-Marie Gonzaga (instead, it's husband for Maria Anna Vasa who will take the Polish crown). May lead to pretty interesting events on the East.

I was under the impression he remarried (morganatically) after Ludwika Maria's death? Some French divorcée named Mignon, Mignette, something like that.
My reasoning was that Austria's better showing in the Austro-Turkish War and the outburst of the Great War/Turkish involvement with the Cossacks would be enough to push John Casimir into a marital alliance with the Hapsburgs instead of a morganatic one.

Hopefully issue would then spice things up both in Poland and Sweden.

 

[JonasResende]

I was under the impression he remarried (morganatically) after Ludwika Maria's death? Some French divorcée named Mignon, Mignette, something like that.
My reasoning was that Austria's better showing in the Austro-Turkish War and the outburst of the Great War/Turkish involvement with the Cossacks would be enough to push John Casimir into a marital alliance with the Hapsburgs instead of a morganatic one.

Hopefully issue would then spice things up both in Poland and Sweden.

Her name was Claude/Claudine Françoise Mignot, and she reportedly married John II in 1672 a few weeks before he died. She gave him one child (or a child at least, she said was his) Marie Catherine Vasa (1670-after 1672).

Unfortunately, she seems to be regarded as a bit of an adventuress who snared the Polish king as her third husband (after acquiring two previous fortunes).

An Austrian Archduchess in this case - is also requiring of a dispensation (I think) due to the fact that Eleonora Maria Josefa would be the niece of his previous wife.

 

[Velasco]

Her name was Claude/Claudine Françoise Mignot, and she reportedly married John II in 1672 a few weeks before he died. She gave him one child (or a child at least, she said was his) Marie Catherine Vasa (1670-after 1672).

Unfortunately, she seems to be regarded as a bit of an adventuress who snared the Polish king as her third husband (after acquiring two previous fortunes).

An Austrian Archduchess in this case - is also requiring of a dispensation (I think) due to the fact that Eleonora Maria Josefa would be the niece of his previous wife.

Thank you. Didn't know they had a child. What happened to the girl?

Is it fair to think dispensations were quite easy to come by in this period? In what I've read I don't see much thought being given to the issue, compared to a few hundred years prior, so perhaps they were given out more freely?

EDIT: I'm wondering if I ought to have a little fun and use Mignot elsewhere...hehe

 

[Valena]

Well, this adventuress happened 5 years into his abdication when he was a lonely desperate man living in abbey near Paris. So maybe he was into some company.

Austria doing better in Transylvania, however, might be just enough of a push to reconsider his plans and to marry his wife's niece himself, without declaring her husband his successor.
He can also go with Plan A of his late wife and officially name Charles-Paris de Longueville his heir, arranging the marriage of him to his wife's niece and all this. I think this is more plausible, as he was a former cardinal and was not into remarrying his wife's niece.
Inviting over an official successor, though, is very another thing. Also gets rid of incompetent Michael Wiśniowiecki who got crown only because his dad was great general (same goes for Duc d'Engien, though).

In short, there were four major pretenders:
1. Charles-Paris de Longueville. Favored by Queen, but sadly lost first election and was dead by the time of second.
2. Henri-Jules de Bourbon-Conde, Duc d'Engien. Second best Queen's favorite, incompetent and mentally unstable.
3. Michael Wiśniowiecki- homebrew version of the above minus clinical lycantropy, favored as Polish candidate, but a bad stand-in for the King to be honest. Won elections in OTL.
4. The most exotic candidate - Tsesarevich-Successor Alexei Alexeevich of Russia. Tsar Alexis Mikhailovich seriously groomed his older sons (Alexei and Feodor) for Polish throne, they were fluent in Polish and Latin and were educated by tutors from Commonwealth. The idea failed due to Tsesarevich having to convert to Greek Catholic faith (at the very least) and thus formally renounce his rights to throne of Russia to be eligible to marry to Queen's niece and become the next King of Commonwealth. Then Alexei died in 1670 of unknown causes and idea was abandoned by default.

The idea of established successor sounds nicer to me than remarriage. There was no such thing as regency in elective monarchy of Poland. So since any child from second marriage is bound to be a minor when King dies, the Commonwealth might get roughly the same deal as OTL with one more pretender thrown in.

 

[Velasco]

Is there any possible scenario where you think John Casimir would opt for remarriage, to an Austrian archduchess?

Also, I was wondering if you could advise me on the international marriage possibilities for Russian royalty at this point - what are the chances of it happening, what would the terms be, etc?

 

[Valena]

In "Duchess of Cumberland" both election-1667 and election-1673 play as OTL due to my laziness to introduce the butterflies that early, Charles-Paris dies as OTL.
In "Appolinis et Dianae" Charles-Paris loses election-1667, survives in 1672 but is wounded and is unable to personally participate in election-1673, and Sobieski still gets elected by narrow margin (Duc de Longueville's survival still will be important for Europe's political map later on).

Consider the fact that in PLC the King was unable to officially name his successor during the lifetime (John Cazimir tried to change this and got an uprising for his troubles), so it's better off to start preparing (semi-)competent adult successor than remarrying without guaranteed male issue or guaranteed throne for this issue (no institution of Regency, de-jure non-hereditary monarchy etc).

 

[Valena]

Alexis Mikhailovich was VERY interested in western prospects for his children - it's a bit sad that only the FOURTH son of his got into history as great reformer while the groundwork laid by the father and brother was lost.
So, basically the Tsar was interested, but there were also dynastic rules. Tsar and his spouse had to be Orthodox Christians, so any girl marrying into Russian Royalty had to convert.

There was attempt to marry the sister of Alexis Mikhailovich Irina to a Danish Prince (a bastard one so that no line of succession gets mangled), however the marriage was to be made without renunciation of Irina's rights to Russian throne, and thus the Prince as a possible Tsar-Consort had to convert (he refused). The marriage terms with Western countries without bride having to convert are possible and Tsar will be happy to conclude such an alliance, but in this case, shall the push come to shove and the line goes down to female succession as in OTL, the non-Orthodox consort will have to convert to be recognized as one.

As for marriage prospects in given period, let's consider Duchy of Courland. In the end of Deluge Jacob Kettler, Duke of Courland, seriously entertained the idea of alliance with Russia as a way to save Couronian economy from decline (but the negotiations died down early due to Russia entering a period of internal instability). A double marriage with Couronians will be both an important gateway into the European royalty and a boost for westernization of Russia (and regaining access to Baltic Russia lost to Sweden during the Time of Troubles). During the reign of Duke Jacob Courland had third strongest Navy on the Baltic. Add to this Russian resources and manpower and it's Sweden screwtime.
That's the closest and IMO most plausible thing for this time period (late into Alexis Mikhailovich reign). I think, that due to conversion laws some interested rulers may also propose their bastard offspring for dynastic marriage with Russians.

 

[Valena]

Is there any possible scenario where you think John Casimir would opt for remarriage, to an Austrian archduchess?

The only scenario I see is he somehow secures the vivente rege law, otherwise the marriage is pointless as any heir produced by it will be a minor when he dies.
It's a reason he only took another wife, morganatic or not, five years after abdication, when such thing as "whether my child gets throne" didn't matter.

 

[Velasco]

The only scenario I see is he somehow secures the vivente rege law, otherwise the marriage is pointless as any heir produced by it will be a minor when he dies.
It's a reason he only took another wife, morganatic or not, five years after abdication, when such thing as "whether my child gets throne" didn't matter.

Perhaps a royal infant, as opposed to a royal nephew, would be easier to elect during the father's reign? Say ITTL Ludwika Maria died earlier, leading John Casimir to start considering remarriage earlier (as an alternative to making one of her nephews his heir) - with Austria in a stronger, securer position, another Archduchess showed herself as the obvious choice.

 

[Valena]

Yes, probably there might be a compromise deal - a "vivente rege" with a King of Romans-like title for heir, a regency council made of great magnates (though a F*CKTON of in-fighting in it is guaranteed) or some such.
In OTL the King never considered this as he was too tired to struggle against the tide, and with his Queen all the will to struggle has gone.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerzy_Sebastian_Lubomirski
Basically, the abdication and remarriage of the king is the matter of this guy's uprising losing or winning. If he wins the stuff will be mostly as OTL.

 

[Valena]

Also, how about you use this portrait of Rupert as Prince-Bishop of Verden

As an adequate one for the time period, instead of one where he's in his late teens. Yes, he looked sexier back then, but this one captures his handsome awesomeness as well.

 

[Velasco]

Chapter XIV: On Leopold and Charles, 1669

The Emperor Leopold found his position strengthened as he emerged from his second consecutive successful campaign. From the Austro-Turkish War he had gained territory - not much, but some - and saved Transylvania from otherwise certain catastrophe; from the Great War (as the various international conflicts deriving from Second Anglo-Dutch War became known) he obtained Maastricht and Verden, though both were soon parted with on the advice of his councilors, who feared the over-extension of Austria's already limited resources. With his great rivals the Hohenzollerns having enjoyed similar expansions of territory and so boldly flexed their military muscle - even if on his behalf - the Emperor had cause to proceed cautiously.

No sooner had an uneasy peace settled over his western frontier than the East beckoned once more. He had given one of his sisters in marriage to his double first cousin once removed, John II Casimir Wasa, King of Poland. A rather weak ruler, John Casimir's position had been greatly strengthened by the death - accidental and highly fortuitous - of his troublesome general Lubomirski while the latter was fleeing to Silesia. Lubomirski had at that time been scheming with both Austria and Brandenburg, who feared the increase of French influence in Poland if the King managed to push through his desired reforms and promote one of his wife's French kin as his heir. The Polish magnates (of whom Lubomirski was chief) and clergy had flirted with the idea of a Hapsburg succession - even a heredity one - in recent years, and many were favorable to the election of a prince who could offer the Commonwealth the foreign aid it so desperately needed. The idea of electing an Austrian archduke as heir during the King's own lifetime (vivente rege) was considered, as a means of averting civil war in case of his sudden demise. Consideration was given to the Emperor's sole brother, but the project was scuppered when the young adolescent died prematurely, leaving the Poles with the unappealing prospect of a child-King ruled by his father (or fathers). These were the considerations which impelled John Casimir to remarry almost immediately upon the death of his French Queen, and to do so in Austria - a Polish-born child with a claim on Austrian aid was preferable to an infant archduke who might suddenly find himself next in succession to the Imperial diadem.

Leopold was loathe to embroil himself in John Casimir's troubles but welcomed the opportunity to block the succession of a Frenchman or a French candidate like the Duke of Neuburg. Sending aid to Casimir in his never-ending round of troubles seemed a small price to pay, especially since such aid always came late and in exceptionally small doses.

Similarly minuscule aid was sent to the Venetians, who were then locked in an intense struggle with the Ottoman Turks in Crete and Dalmatia. The Emperor had no desire to reignite his Balkan frontier with warfare and was thus comfortable with allowing La Serenissima to bear the full brunt of the Sublime Porte's aggression, even in face of the Pope's protestations and entreaties.

With peace finally restored on all sides, the Emperor was able to return to Wien, preside over his court and enjoy his young Empress and their growing brood of children.

In England King Charles II had emerged relatively unscathed from the Second Anglo-Dutch War. The French subsidies had permitted some last-minute pre-peace revenge for the Raid on the Medway and the peace had been a favourable one, particularly in regards to the King's nephew William of Orange. Peace allowed Louis to follow through on some of his financial promises, alleviating the King's ever-dire purse somewhat. Most importantly the birth of a Prince of Wales and a Princess Royal - Catherine Louise - gladdened the mob and increased the popularity of both King and Queen. The Earl of Clarendon was spared destruction, though his role in government diminished somewhat.

From birth much thought was given to the marriage of the royal heirs: despite the age difference, the King favoured William of Orange for his girl, and Madame Royale for his son, though popular opinion was naturally opposed to another Papist Queen. The Queen hoped to see her daughter matched with her nephew, the Prince of Brazil, and gladly participated in a lively correspondence with the Spanish Queen, who was eager to see England return to the Catholic fold but detached from France's side.​

​

 

[Velasco]

Yes, probably there might be a compromise deal - a "vivente rege" with a King of Romans-like title for heir, a regency council made of great magnates (though a F*CKTON of in-fighting in it is guaranteed) or some such.
In OTL the King never considered this as he was too tired to struggle against the tide, and with his Queen all the will to struggle has gone.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerzy_Sebastian_Lubomirski
Basically, the abdication and remarriage of the king is the matter of this guy's uprising losing or winning. If he wins the stuff will be mostly as OTL.

New update - Lubomirski dies at just the right time and the indecision of the Poles over who should be John Casimir's successor/how to handle the succession has him remarry shortly afterward in Austria. I don't want to necessarily delve too much into Poland-Lithuania's internal dramas, though perhaps Lubomirski's death is enough to reinvigorate the King and allow John Casimir his reforms.

 

[Valena]

New update - Lubomirski dies at just the right time and the indecision of the Poles over who should be John Casimir's successor/how to handle the succession has him remarry shortly afterward in Austria. I don't want to necessarily delve too much into Poland-Lithuania's internal dramas, though perhaps Lubomirski's death is enough to reinvigorate the King and allow John Casimir his reforms.

I'm giving you thumbs up for this.
Internal dramas, though, are bound to happen with Regency Council for newly elected Crown Prince.

Also, if Liselotte of Palatinate is vacant by 1670, she's most likely bride for William of Orange (she was somewhat in love with him, and frankly hated her dad for abandoning this idea in favor of French marriage - later on she hoped than her daughter can marry William).

 

[Velasco]

I'm giving you thumbs up for this.
Internal dramas, though, are bound to happen with Regency Council for newly elected Crown Prince.

Also, if Liselotte of Palatinate is vacant by 1670, she's most likely bride for William of Orange (she was somewhat in love with him, and frankly hated her dad for abandoning this idea in favor of French marriage - later on she hoped than her daughter can marry William).

Yay Maybe Queen Christina of Sweden is brought in to help out, eh?

I'm working out yet what I'm going to do with Orleans and the Palatines...I need a well-bred Protestant bride for Rupert too. Verden isn't all that but my preference is for him to marry better than some nobody from Anhalt or wherever.

 

[Valena]

Well. as evident by Russian history, Anhalt girls DO have some potential in them (and there are nobody from here from this time period). But nevertheless... the BRIDESHOW for Rupert.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlotte_Amalie_of_Hesse-Kassel
Unless married to Denmark already as OTL.
Maria of Nassau - unless married to Rupert's cousin as OTL (done in Appolinis et Dianae). Though her husband was terminally ill all the way, so maybe Rupert can grab the widow.
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_van_Nassau_(1642-1688)
Amalia of Nassau-Dietz, niece of the above
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amalia_van_Nassau-Dietz_(1655-1695)
Daughters of Duke of Courland
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louise_Elisabeth_of_Courland
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amalia_of_Kurland
Though I don't think Duke Jacob would want a man who plundered his precious colony in Gambia during his pirate career for in-law, but stranger things happen.
------
That's the preliminary list of girls who may or may not fit the requirements and be on short-list of Hochadel brides for Rupert. Previous marriage tendencies for Palatinate-Simmern clan are taken into account.

 

[Velasco]

Well. as evident by Russian history, Anhalt girls DO have some potential in them (and there are nobody from here from this time period). But nevertheless... the BRIDESHOW for Rupert.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlotte_Amalie_of_Hesse-Kassel
Unless married to Denmark already as OTL.
Maria of Nassau - unless married to Rupert's cousin as OTL (done in Appolinis et Dianae). Though her husband was terminally ill all the way, so maybe Rupert can grab the widow.
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_van_Nassau_(1642-1688)
Amalia of Nassau-Dietz, niece of the above
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amalia_van_Nassau-Dietz_(1655-1695)
Daughters of Duke of Courland
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louise_Elisabeth_of_Courland
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amalia_of_Kurland
Though I don't think Duke Jacob would want a man who plundered his precious colony in Gambia during his pirate career for in-law, but stranger things happen.
------
That's the preliminary list of girls who may or may not fit the requirements and be on short-list of Hochadel brides for Rupert. Previous marriage tendencies for Palatinate-Simmern clan are taken into account.

Thank you, exactly what I needed. I'm very strongly inclined to Maria of Nassau, simply for the Orange connection, which would seemingly fit with Rupert's position at the English court and alignment with English interests.

Do you think a grander match with Wilhelmina Ernestina of Denmark (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princess_Wilhelmina_Ernestine_of_Denmark) or Queen Dowager Hedwig Eleanora of Sweden (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedwig_Eleonora_of_Holstein-Gottorp) would be out of the question, given his small principality and fortune? I wonder perhaps if his fame and talents would be compensation, in a sense.

 

[Valena]

Wilhelmina-Ernestina was fugly as hell, so she'll be probably still stuck with unfortunate Rupert's nephew.
And I don't see Queen-Regent of Sweden being that willing to remarry, no matter how famous and awesome the candidate is. If she wanted, she'd have done this already.

But I like either Curonian or Dutch girls (Hesse-Kassel girl thrown in for the sake of the traditional dynastic ties and Rupert being good friend with her father). Either Maria of Nassau, or (if taken) her niece, as I think that Duke of Courland will still be pissed off at Rupert for Gambia and won't want to arrange any marriage deal with him.