Prospectives for a Hunyad Hungary

Let's say that Matthias Corvinus Hunyadi has a legitimate son and/or lives some years more, ensuring the legitination and succession of his son Johann. What then? Could the Black Army be transformed from a mercenary force to a sort of modern professional but "national" army like the spanish tercios? Would Hungary be able to resist the Ottomans at their zenith and maube even expand l, for example taking Dalmatia during the war of Cambrai? Other questions are the relationship with the Habsburg and HRE (imo Vienna and Styria would have to be given back, but Hungary could control the Bohemian crown), the religious matters (magnates could embrace Lutheranism against a centralizing King, or maybe not, I need to study more this matter).

Renaissance Hungary is extremely interesting, are there any TLs about this? I couldn't find any...
 
A PoD in the mid 15th century most certainly butterflies away Lutheranism.

As for surviving against the Ottomans, with 75 years between Hunyadi and Mohacs there's bound to be some way to prevent Ottoman conquest. Hungary was still incredibly prosperous due to gold during the early 16th century, right?
 
Well the POD would be circa 1475, but you are right, while I think something similar to the Reformation won't be butterflied, maybe it won't be heralded by Martin Luther (although he would be already adult by that time).

As to revenues, it seems to me that the salt monopoly played an important role too. It is worth noting that the influx of American silver and gold will make the Hungarian mines way less profitable in the long term. I suppose that it is important that the monarchy can keep control of its great estates and not give them back to the various magnates as apparently the Jagellonians did. I am however far from an expert on the budget of the Kingdom of Saint Stephen during the renaissance. It would be great if someone could gently point me to sources in English or German?
 
A PoD in the mid 15th century most certainly butterflies away Lutheranism.

As for surviving against the Ottomans, with 75 years between Hunyadi and Mohacs there's bound to be some way to prevent Ottoman conquest. Hungary was still incredibly prosperous due to gold during the early 16th century, right?

The incredibily prosperous thing... well. Not that much. Long time ago, i seen some budget balances of King Mathias later years, the spending on the army was already frightening, and after him, the income dropped greatly (loss of Silezia, royal funds taken over by magnates or simply embezzled, etcetcetc.)

However, on interesting thing: if the dinasty remains, and they keep their mildly anti-hapsburg tendencies (khm, Vienna), Hungary could easily end up on the "french" side of the struggel, ending up as a semi-ally of the otomans. No love and occasional skirmishes, but next time the Sultan asks the road to Vienna, they build it for him if necesseary.
 
The incredibily prosperous thing... well. Not that much. Long time ago, i seen some budget balances of King Mathias later years, the spending on the army was already frightening, and after him, the income dropped greatly (loss of Silezia, royal funds taken over by magnates or simply embezzled, etcetcetc.)

However, on interesting thing: if the dinasty remains, and they keep their mildly anti-hapsburg tendencies (khm, Vienna), Hungary could easily end up on the "french" side of the struggel, ending up as a semi-ally of the otomans. No love and occasional skirmishes, but next time the Sultan asks the road to Vienna, they build it for him if necesseary.
But if Hungary belongs to the Hunyadis, and assuming the Habsburgs do not get Spain (it was quite unlikely IOTL anyway) why would there be any conflict between the Habsburgs and the Ottomans? In this TL the Hunyadis would suffer from Ottoman expansionism against the borders of Hungary, not the Habsburgs. If anything we could see the Habsburgs becoming allied to the Ottomans against the Hungarians, and the French eventually being against the Sultans as well.
 
But if Hungary belongs to the Hunyadis, and assuming the Habsburgs do not get Spain (it was quite unlikely IOTL anyway) why would there be any conflict between the Habsburgs and the Ottomans? In this TL the Hunyadis would suffer from Ottoman expansionism against the borders of Hungary, not the Habsburgs. If anything we could see the Habsburgs becoming allied to the Ottomans against the Hungarians, and the French eventually being against the Sultans as well.

Sorry for the late answer :)

Hungarian-Ottoman conflict pretty much guaranteed (especially under a Corvin rule, if the son follows Matthias steps): two expansionist country, and the ottomans on a conquest spree. Unless something distracts them: Spain/Med/Levant for the ottomans, general western problems for the hungarians (lets not forget, that at the end of Matthias rule, he was pretty much at war with the whole HRE).
But: anything possible! However, i dont see the french be against the ottomans, unless they got Spain, the whole reconquista business and the meddling at the Levant and so. So, IMHO Spain is the key.
 
This is what kind of thread I was looking for!
For a prosperous Hunyadi /Korvin the POD must 1490, when Matthias died in OTL. Let's say he lives ten years more. This ten year is crucial for securing John Korvin's succession and Matthias's conquests at least in Bohemia.

In OTL Matthias was just about to make a deal with Maximilian, wich would give back to the Habsburgs the territories wich Matthias took for 700 000 florins and for the acceptance of the succession of John's. They would probably sign it after the death of Maximilian's father, Frederick III, since he opposed the deal.

If it all goes flawless, then we would see John Korvin emerging as king of Hungary and Bohemia(peripherial) by 1500, probably crowned earlier.

I think when John would succed, he probably wouldn't continue his father's active expansionist policy, but he would stenghten his positions within his realm. He would porbably maintain his father's policy towards the turks too, reducing the confrontation with the ottomans to minor border clashes, and keeping up the quality or even strenghtening the southern borderfortsystem.

His first real chance to expand his empire would be the first war of the league of Cambrai against Venice(1508-10) in, when he could take Dalmatia from the venetians. The second one could be the death of Vladislaus II of Bohemia(proper) in 1516, when he could take the remaining part of Bohemia which was still not his. Ofcourse, first he would have to defeat the local supporters of Vladislaus's son, Louis's, who at this point is still just a kid, and probably the polish too. If he would win, wich is more than just a simple probability, he could seize all of Bohemia and get back the 13 hungarian cities in Szepes wich were in polish pledge since the time Sigismund of Luxemburg.

What could happen after this? what do you think?
(BTW: Didn't I just wrote a concrete TL core here, did I?)
(BTWBTW: Uhh I just red what I wrote, lectors welcome.)
 
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@Fehérvári this is potentially an awesome timeline, with wn huge impact on central european history. It seems not so easy to do however, especially because it is bound ti cause changes in the whole end of the hussite wars/election of Charles V as emperor/Reformation business.
I would certainly read this with pleasure!
 
@Fehérvári this is potentially an awesome timeline, with wn huge impact on central european history. It seems not so easy to do however, especially because it is bound ti cause changes in the whole end of the hussite wars/election of Charles V as emperor/Reformation business.
I would certainly read this with pleasure!
It doesn't have much to do with the hussite wars, since they are ended a long time ago, and I don't think it would make any impact on the election of Charles neither, he would buy the the votes like he did in OTL. But, if we assume that in the time of reformation the hungarians would adopt their free religions policy around the 1580's (like in OTL), with the king remaining chatolic(for foreign policy reasons), then that would certainly lead us to unimagenably different thirty years war, since there would no such religious tensions in Bohemia, and it not even would be in Habsburg hands!

And if you think about it, what could this proposed TL still give us? Yeah, you're right, a surviving Louis Jagiellon(without any realm though), wich could probably alter almost the entire history of Poland from 1572 or from even earlier, since he could have issues!
 

Zagan

Donor
It would be interesting if the so called "Hunyadi" Kings of Hungary (actually Corvinus) realized that they were ethnic Romanians and started to act in the interest of their oppressed Romanian conationals! After all, there were probably as many Romanians as Hungarians in the Kingdom of Hungary.
Imagine a kind of Hungary-Romania similar with the OTL Austria-Hungary, with the internal border on the Tisa (Tisza)...
 
It doesn't have much to do with the hussite wars, since they are ended a long time ago, and I don't think it would make any impact on the election of Charles neither, he would buy the the votes like he did in OTL. But, if we assume that in the time of reformation the hungarians would adopt their free religions policy around the 1580's (like in OTL), with the king remaining chatolic(for foreign policy reasons), then that would certainly lead us to unimagenably different thirty years war, since there would no such religious tensions in Bohemia, and it not even would be in Habsburg hands!

And if you think about it, what could this proposed TL still give us? Yeah, you're right, a surviving Louis Jagiellon(without any realm though), wich could probably alter almost the entire history of Poland from 1572 or from even earlier, since he could have issues!

It'd be interesting to see how things get shaken up by Ludvik II's survival. If he gets superceded by Matthias' son for the Bohemian crown, then by dint of his descent from Casimir IV, he's the most senior male-line member of the House of Jagiellon (and thus might pose an interesting threat to Sigismund II or even Sigismund I) if he doesn't have a kingdom of his own to be worried about. But the chances of him getting a Habsburg archduchess to wife in this scenario seems really unlikely.
 
It would be interesting if the so called "Hunyadi" Kings of Hungary (actually Corvinus) realized that they were ethnic Romanians and started to act in the interest of their oppressed Romanian conationals! After all, there were probably as many Romanians as Hungarians in the Kingdom of Hungary.
Imagine a kind of Hungary-Romania similar with the OTL Austria-Hungary, with the internal border on the Tisa (Tisza)...
Like Jagiellons Lithuanized Poland?
 
It would be interesting if the so called "Hunyadi" Kings of Hungary (actually Corvinus) realized that they were ethnic Romanians and started to act in the interest of their oppressed Romanian conationals! After all, there were probably as many Romanians as Hungarians in the Kingdom of Hungary.
Imagine a kind of Hungary-Romania similar with the OTL Austria-Hungary, with the internal border on the Tisa (Tisza)...
What ethnically Romanian?
Matias was 1/2 Hungarian and 1/2 Romanian (genetically speaking).
His son, it will be only 1/4
His grandson... you got it?

Also, historical Transylvania do not include either Banat, nor Crisana, nor Maramures/Marmatia.... there was no question of Tisa border even if such union will somehow happens.
 

Zagan

Donor
What ethnically Romanian?
Matias was 1/2 Hungarian and 1/2 Romanian (genetically speaking).
His son, it will be only 1/4
His grandson... you got it?

Also, historical Transylvania do not include either Banat, nor Crisana, nor Maramures/Marmatia.... there was no question of Tisa border even if such union will somehow happens.
They may marry Romanians...

Historical Transylvania does not matter. All the way to the Tisa was full of Romanians (at least 1/3 of the population).
 
They may marry Romanians...
Very improbable. Cause of many reasons including religious and status.
Historical Transylvania does not matter. All the way to the Tisa was full of Romanians (at least 1/3 of the population).
Back then the ethnicity do not realy matter in establishing the frontiers... this is an 18 century stuff or even 19.
 
But at the time the rulers' ethnical background wasn't that important. Besides, if the Kingdom stabilises and stays an important palyer in Europe most mrriages will likely be with foreign princesses: wasn't John Corvinus slated to marry a Sforza for example?
 

Zagan

Donor
But at the time the rulers' ethnical background wasn't that important. Besides, if the Kingdom stabilises and stays an important palyer in Europe most mrriages will likely be with foreign princesses: wasn't John Corvinus slated to marry a Sforza for example?
Italians, that is also Romance, as the Romanians... More Latin blood!
 
It would be interesting if the so called "Hunyadi" Kings of Hungary (actually Corvinus) realized that they were ethnic Romanians and started to act in the interest of their oppressed Romanian conationals! After all, there were probably as many Romanians as Hungarians in the Kingdom of Hungary.
Imagine a kind of Hungary-Romania similar with the OTL Austria-Hungary, with the internal border on the Tisa (Tisza)...
Please, I don't need any kind of flamewar(or how is it called) to start here. This thread is not about this. Your post is probably pretty provocativous towards many hungarians, who would probably question your statements, and probably would found insulting your proposed idea too. I say it one more time, please, if you have problem with this thread, just ignore it! Thank you.
 

Zagan

Donor
Please, I don't need any kind of flamewar(or how is it called) to start here. This thread is not about this. Your post is probably pretty provocativous towards many hungarians, who would probably question your statements, and probably would found insulting your proposed idea too. I say it one more time, please, if you have problem with this thread, just ignore it! Thank you.
I am sorry. I did not mean to insult anyone. I have posted in a thread started by @Yanez de Gomera who did not seem Hungarian to me.
I do not want any "flamewar" or whatever. Only a discussion about something that happened half a millenia ago! It's not "current politics", for God's sake!
 
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