Proposals and War Aims That Didn't Happen Map Thread

Hrvatskiwi

Hrvatskiwi

Aghasverov said:
Even then though, the lines weren't completely clear, especially in urban areas like Samarkand and Kokand (and, judging from the map, Bukhara)... from what I've read, in the cities the Turkic dialects were under heavier Persian influence, than in the nomadic/semi-nomadic tribes on the steppes... where one ended and the other began was sort of a term of art :)
In the Russian Empire, the epithet "Sart" (now maybe considered derogatory) was used for town-dwellers, while in rural areas Khirgiz, Khazakh, or Turkmen were assigned as appropriate... but the lines between them were a bit blurry....
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Have you read the book "Making Uzbekistan" by Adeeb Khalid? Has a lot of super-interesting information on this exact topic.
 
Aghasverov

Aghasverov

Hrvatskiwi said:
Have you read the book "Making Uzbekistan" by Adeeb Khalid? Has a lot of super-interesting information on this exact topic.
Click to expand...
No I haven't, but it sounds like an interesting read... I did read of at least one case where the Soviets tried to "standardize" a certain dialect to encourage literacy, but picked one spoken by the more geographically dispersed nomadic population. They tried to introduce it in the cities, no one could understand it.... so, it was "back to the drawing board" :)
 
TheKutKu

TheKutKu

A plan drafted around 1902-1906 for various attempted protectorates over the poorly controlled south western Madagascar, the protectorates had larger native autonomy under various chiefs:

Vezo-Mazikoro: Chief Rebiby
Tanosy: Chief Befitory
Mahafaly: Chief Tsiamponde
Bara Be: Chief Impoinimerina
Imanono: Chief Refotaka

Gallieni, famous conqueror of Madagascar and governor at the time supported this idea, but the idea floundered on various causes: The betrayal of some of the supported native leaders, notably chief Befitory of the Tanosy and the chief of the Vezo & Mazikoro, Tomafana who supported the insurgent in the 1904 south-eastern madagascar uprising, cost saving were also limited since the protectorates kept some of the french administrative structure and personel, Finally the successor of Gallieni, Victor Augagneur was a staunch centralist of the jacobinist tradition.
The Mahafaly were the last disestablished protectorates in 1906

Adapted from
Jean Fremigacci,
État, économie et société coloniale à Madagascar (fin XIX e siècle - 1940),

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Also here's a QBAM map of OTL administrative divisions in 1910 French madagascar

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TheKutKu

TheKutKu

Another proposal from the time of the conquest of Madagascar.

La « puissance protectrice » pour guider la Grande ile

Au début de 1894, alors que le débarquement et la conquête de Madagascar ne sont pas encore décidés, le gouvernement français projette un nouveau traité avec la «Reine des Hovas ». Cet accord est publié en 1979, dans la revue historique Hier et Aujourd’hui , N°10.
lexpress.mg lexpress.mg

This one was from a large study comissioned by the Chief of Staff of the French army and the Minister of War in February 1894, a bit over half a year before the declaration of war with the Merina kingdom, it wasn't strictly official policy but was representative of the thought of the time in the army and colonial sector.

After summing up the situation in madagascar, it comes to some conclusions and interesting proposal for a treaty to the Queen Ranavalona III,
It refused both a protectorate over madagascar and a complete annexation of it:

"Annexation would impose financial burdens far in excess of the results to be expected. Although more economical, the first consequence of an effective protectorate would be to oblige the French forces, after their victory, to further impose the domination of the Hova queen throughout the island - whereas, according to the authors, her suzerainty is only really accepted in a third of the country. In sum, it would now be necessary to support the government of Tananarive, which was fundamentally and insidiously hostile to the French in a probably lasting way, against non-Merina populations which were rather friends of France and would in turn become hostile. It is therefore better to subdivide Madagascar into several zones that are practically independent of each other, including the Hova kingdom, a feudal state of France among others, reduced to the Imerina and the Betsileo. The treaty putting an end to hostilities should be signed with this kingdom alone. In the other regions, there is no hurry: for the time being, it would be sufficient to place a few military commands there, in charge of eventual pacification and taking the place of the Merina governors when there are any. Then, one could reconstitute, for example, the old large peripheral political units such as the Sakalava kingdom. At the head of the country, a resident general, whose function would be analogous to that of the Viceroy of India, would maintain with the various peoples of Madagascar relations of a variable nature, adapted to their needs"

The details of the treaty
-France would assume immediate protectorate status over the whole island
-Ranavalona III keeps her power, title and direct administration in a polygone made of the towns of malatsy, Vohilena, Amparafaravola, Beparasy, Ivohitrambo, Alakamisy, Vohibo, Midongy, Tsiraomandidy and Tampomanandrarina with an eventual ajustment to follow natural borders
-The merina army would be dissolved and would be replaced by an indigenous force of 8,000 men, of which 2,000 would be in the gendarmerie and 1,000 in the customs
-France would manage foreign relations of the Merina both with external powers and with other nations of Madagascar
-A constitution would be written for the kingdom, and freedom of religion for Christians, Jews and Muslims will be guaranteed

Anyway here's a map of it based on this treaty proposal:
1637334171823.png

In the medium term the borders would be adjusted to not be straigth lines

Internal Merina borders based on "Bible et pouvoir à Madagascar au xixe siècle. Invention d’une identité chrétienne et construction de l’État, 1780-1880" and Mission L.M.S. et Mission Jesuite face aux communautes villageoises Merina. Fondation et fonctionnement des paroisses entre 1869 et 1876

Green dots are the border cities mentionned above, blue are three cities (Fianarantsoa, Vohilena and Ambohidratimo) where the french would keep a directly administered garrison.

I wasn't quite sure of the location of one of the border cities (Vohibo) so here's a more conservative QBAM version, along with WorldAs

1637334427894.png


1637334656212.png

Also here's something I quickly made based on the two previous post, along with a few papers on Gallieni's indirect rules attempts, the aforementioned paper, and a few others

The Sakalava protectorates were mentionned in the pdf I linked above, IRL it was quickly attempted in the center of the Menabe (up to the tsiribibina river basin)... however it was attempted After the french brutally massacred the Menabe king Toera and the whole of the local elite who had just surrendered, they put the claimant and former king Inguerezza on the throne, but all authority of the kingdom had collapsed, particularly in the inland Betsirisy, there was a second planned protectorate in northern menabe around the manambolo river but it was never established.
Contrary to the menabe the Boina was always supposed to be directly administered. The south-east was also judged too diverse by Lyautey (who drafted the inland protectorates in the above post) and needed to be directly administered. There were also recommandtion to enlarge the Bara protectorate.
Finally the Antankara (in yellow) kingdom were allied with the french for decades, even signing a mostly meaningless protectorate treaty in 1841 with the French in reunion (but Merina power projection was too strong at the time) they helped the french in the 83-85 first was and sided with them again a decade later, I didnt' see mention of it but it seems they could be put under the regime of a protectorate
 
TheKutKu

TheKutKu

Two... weird proposals

unknown.png

From René Pelissier's "Spanish Africa - Afrique Espagnole. Études sur la fin d'un Empire", based on his "Los territorios españoles de Africa", 1964, couldn't find another reference but I believe the author since all his works are extremely serious and well documented
The foreign ministry of spain under Fernando María Castiella's, in the mid 60s, considered giving Ifni to an arab league administration

Ifni was just a small military outpost/city state that the Spaniards didn’t even try to leave the outskirts of the town despite claiming thousands of km2 which were controlled by the Moroccan by the 60s It just was some forgettable fiefdom of the generously paid oversea army which lived of subsidies, small trade with locals and was useful as a store front of Europe to local tribes and as a negociation asset with Morocco My understanding is that it was a proposal by the foreign minister who wanted to 1) kinda get rid of it quickly while being well seen internationally and 2) as part of a rivalry between the foreign ministry and the army and particularly as part of a personal rivalry between Fernando Castiella and Carrero Blanco who he had . Doubt it could have happened especially with Morocco's desire to annex it.

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From ANGOLA 20 ANS DE GUERRE CIVILE" by Dia Kassembe, was dubious until i found a NYT article from ~September 11 1979 mentionning it

Apparently in 1978, 3 years after independence from Portugal and in the middle of the civil war with the western-backed UNITA, Agostinho Neto, first ,communist, MPLA President of Angola went to Europe to ask for a joint Portuguese-French military Force in Angola to replace the 20,000 strong Cuban one

It was as part of a "change of heart” around the time, he wanted to weaken Cuban and soviet influence which had become overbearing since 1975. He signed a non agression pact with Mobutu and made a speech in Malanje welcoming back FNLA members who had been in exile since 1976. Then in September 1979 in a trip to Moscow he died of a well-hidden cancer.

Another source I could find in the NYT mentions a french counter-proposal to instead have a joint comission/force made up of Portugal, France and two eastern block countries to replace the cuban one. It seems that the european countries feared such an obvious move would result in a coup against Neto and further growth of cuban presence, which wasn't too far from what happened.

Still fun, Portuguese forces had left not 3 years before, imagine if Ho Chi Minh had asked for French and American troops to come in north vietnam in 1955 to check back the PRC's influence, that's of the same caliber lol
 
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Blair

  • In the 1560s, Aceh requested to be annexed by the Ottoman state. The Sultan agreed, but had to redirect his ships to stop a Yemeni rebellion.
  • In 1807, Sultan Mustafa IV ordered his siblings be killed. One hid in a furnace and became Mahmud II.
  • Born in 1585, Yahya was the self-proclaimed son of Sultan Murad III. He was smuggled out of Istanbul, baptized as a Christian, and married a descendent of Skanderbeg. He convinced Cossack and Tartar leaders of his parentage and received 130 ships to attack Istanbul.
  • Russia tried to colonize Madagascar in 1723, California in 1812, Hawaii in 1816, and Ethiopia in 1889.
  • In 1649, Governor William Berkeley invited Charles II to become King of Virginia to oppose Oliver Cromwell.
  • In 1788, Governor John Sevier tried to put Tennessee under Spanish rule.
  • In 1793, Catherine II of Russia inherited Jever.
  • In 1808, after the Abdications of Bayontete, Ferdinand I of Sicily was next in line. He sent his son to Gibraltar to make a bid for the throne.
  • In 1803, the reallocation of votes in the Imperial Diet gave Protestants more votes than Catholics in future elections.
  • In 1809, Napoleon offered to let Prince Esterházy be King of an independent Hungary.
  • In 1936, the Soviet Union proposed a Gypsy Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic, "Romani activists demanded parts of the Crimea, Southern Ukraine or the Northern Caucasus as areas for resettlement, while the Soviet authorities preferred Western Siberia or the Far East"
  • Tito proposed annexing Albania and Bulgaria into Yugoslavia. Koçi Xoxe wanted his Albanians merged into one Yugoslav Republic. Georgi Dimitrov wanted Bulgaria admitted as a republic, but for his Macedonian lands to be merged into Yugoslav Macedonia.
  • In 1952, Dwight Eisenhower was a target of assassination by North Korea.
  • In 1956, Malta voted for integration with the United Kingdom.
  • In 1959, British Cameroun rejected total independence.
  • In 1962, a plebiscite in northeastern Kenya supported annexation by Somalia.
  • In 1963, Australia asked Nauru to resettle its entire population on Curtis Island.
  • In 1967, Zhou Enlai stopped an invasion of Hong Kong.
  • Mozambique was to be split into three countries along civil war factions. 1) RENAMO ("Rombesia"): the province of Zambézia. 2) FRELIMO: the provinces of Cabo Delgado, Niassa, and Mozambique. 3) Portugal: all provinces south of the Zambezi River.
  • In 1974 (see here and here) Prime Minster Marcello Caetano plotted for Angola to declare independence under white minority rule.
  • In the 1970s, Nigeria mulled war with Equatorial Guinea.
  • In 1977, Cuba invaded the Dominican Republic.
  • In 1986, the Netherlands was on the verge of invading Suriname.
  • In 1987, Greece asked Bulgaria to declare war on Turkey if the Greco-Turkish islands dispute went hot.
 
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Aghasverov

Aghasverov

Blair said:
In no particular order:
  • In the 1560s, Aceh requested annexation by the Ottoman Empire. The Ottomans planned a naval expedition to enforce this union, but redirected the ships at the last moment to suppress an unexpected Yemeni rebellion.
  • In 1807, Sultan Mustafa IV ordered all his siblings to be killed. He was deeply unpopular and soon to be killed by rebels himself. The House of Osman would have ended with him, throwing the region into chaos during the Napoleonic Wars no less, except that one his brothers survived by hiding in a furnace and became Sultan Mahmud II.
  • Born in 1585, Yahya was the self-proclaimed son of Sultan Murad III. When his father died, his older half-brother, Mehmed III, ordered all his siblings killed. However, Yahya was smuggled out of Istanbul, secretly baptized as a Christian, and married a woman who claimed direct decent from Skanderbeg. He convinced both Cossack and Tartar leaders of his parentage and received 130 ships to lead an (ultimately unsuccessful) attack on Istanbul.
  • Russia tried to colonize Madagascar in 1723, California in 1812, Hawaii in 1816, and Ethiopia in 1889.
  • After Charles I was beheaded, Governor William Berkeley invited his son, Charles II, to come to Jamestown and be crowned King of Virginia.
  • In 1788, Governor John Sevier tried to sell Tennessee to Spain.
  • In 1793, Catherine II inherited the German city of Jever and the Russian Empire used it as a warm water port. Napoleon later annexed it.
  • After the Abdications of Bayontete, Ferdinand I of Sicily was technically next in line for the throne. He sent his son to Gibraltar to ask for British assistance in attaching Spain and its colonies to his realm. The British backed Ferdinand VII instead.
  • The 1803 reallocation of votes in the Imperial Diet gave Protestant states more votes than Catholic states for the first time. Had Napoleon not dissolved the Holy Roman Empire, it might have dissolved itself over who would be elected next Emperor after Francis II died.
  • In 1809, Napoleon, having just defeated the Austrian armies and occupied Vienna, offered the crown of an independent Hungary to Prince Esterházy, who declined.
  • In 1936, the Soviet Union proposed a Gypsy Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic, "Romani activists demanded parts of the Crimea, Southern Ukraine or the Northern Caucasus as areas for resettlement, while the Soviet authorities preferred Western Siberia or the Far East".
  • Tito proposed annexing Albania and Bulgaria into Yugoslavia after World War II. Yugoslav Albania would annex Albanian speaking regions like Kosovo, something supported by Albanian leader Koçi Xoxe. Bulgaria was to be admitted as a Yugoslav republic, but its Macedonian speaking territories would be used to form a "United Macedonia" within Yugoslavia, something favored by Bulgarian General Secretary Georgi Dimitrov.
  • North Korea tried to kill President-elect Eisenhower during his visit to South Korea. President Richard Nixon would likely continue the war in this case.
  • In 1956, Malta asked to be annexed by the United Kingdom, complete with seats in Parliament.
  • In 1959, British Cameroun voted for independence but was later divided by its neighbors.
  • In 1962, northern British Kenya voted to be annexed the by newly independent Somalia. The British ignored this.
  • In 1963, Australia proposed resettling the entire population of Nauru on Curtis Island. The Nauruans declined when informed they would become Australian citizens, rather than remaining citizens of an independent country.
  • In 1967, China prepared to invade Hong Kong. This was vetoed by at the last moment by Zhou Enlai.
  • During the Mozambican Civil War, a proposal would have divided the country. RENAMO ("Rombesia") would take the province of Zambézia. FRELIMO would take the provinces of Cabo Delgado, Niassa and Mozambique. Portugal would retain provinces south of the Zambezi River.
  • In 1974 (see here and here) Portuguese Prime Minster Marcello Caetano proposed that Portuguese settlers in Angola unilaterally declare independence, following the example of Rhodesia.
  • In the 1970s, Nigeria proposed annexing Equatorial Guinea to stop the mistreatment of Nigerian laborers there.
  • In 1977, Cuba tried to invade the Dominican Republic.
  • In 1986, the Netherlands proposed invading Suriname.
  • In 1987, Greece asked Bulgaria to declare war on Turkey if the Greco-Turkish islands dispute went hot.
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Keep 'em coming! I'm taking notes..... :)
 

BrobDingnag

Blair said:
Russia tried to colonize Madagascar in 1723, California in 1812, Hawaii in 1816, and Ethiopia in 1889.
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“Chyort voz'mi, just ONE warm water port! Please! Anywhere!”
In 1793, Catherine II inherited the German city of Jever and the Russian Empire used it as a warm water port. Napoleon later annexed it.
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“Похоже, не суждено...”
North Korea tried to kill President-elect Eisenhower during his visit to South Korea. President Richard Nixon would likely continue the war in this case.
Click to expand...
I wonder if MacArthur would have gotten the go-ahead to use nukes TTL...
 
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Chris S

Blair said:
In no particular order:
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Nice sets of proposals that didn't happen.

Hopefully someone can put them in map form (since that's the aim of this thread after all ;))

However, the link you provided for the vote on independence by British Cameroons actually says that in 1959 the British Cameroons regions (north and south) voted to become part of their neighbours (north voting to become part of Nigeria, south voting to become part of Cameroon)
 

Blair

 
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