Discussion in 'Alternate History Maps and Graphics' started by Beedok, Jun 15, 2014.
Added Vichy France, occupied Britain, Mittelafrika and neatified Lebansraum
I like how Liberia is just sort of there. Untouched. You'd think that all the racists shuffling borders around in Africa as they please might have something to say about them, but apparently none of the fascists cared enough to ever bother making plans for them.
I'd say it would come down to who would manage to seize the island. The Italians, probably would want it for themselves, and the British would want to keep it under their own control.
Reminds me a bit of how I once saw a map in the Map thread where a lot of European Axis countries were given colonies in the Americans, with the Spaniards getting Puerto Rico, the Dominican Republic, and Cuba at the least. I just mentoin that as I wonder if, in the case of Axis ridiculously total victory, the Nazis would try to exterminate everyone on Hispaniola due to the African and Native blood everyone but the most recent immigrants had somewhere in them. I imagine that, as the Dominican Republic was the only country in the Americas to increase the amount of Jews allowed to immigrant to them (The American Virgin Islands tried to let more in but someone in the federal government stopped them) that the Nazis would put thrmmeven lower on the list. Just bringing it up as I rememeber all those maps people make with the Nazis killing all the Haitians.
Great maps, but why are the plans for Bulgaria, Romania and Hungary are left out? Italy had basically zero influence over them and they were more independent or German influenced. Also the maps of eastern europe are slightly off given we have the actual borders from 1942. So using the map from page 1 to add to these excellent maps:
Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria and Slovakia are good, but I preferred the Yugoslav/Greek region like it was in my version. This version looks a bit closer to OTL than to what Italy had actually planned. But that's just my opinion and I won't change it back.
The Yugoslav and Greek regions are from OTL. The thing about what Italy actually planned is that it overlapped with plans for powers (Germany, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria) that it had no way of bending to its will, especially in Yugoslavia and Greece. In areas where there were no overlapping claims, then the full Italian ambitions make sense to be shown, but Germany had ambitions in Serbia and Croatia (hence the northern part of Croatia was under German influence) and Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria all had their own ambitions that Italy was essentially powerless to stop (Italy wasn't about to go to war with any of those powers over Yugoslavia or Greece; once Italy had control of the Adriatic and most of the eastern Mediterranean then Italy was going to be satisfied).
EDIT: And of course by 1943 things had changed quite a bit, since Bulgaria was then occupying much of Serbia on behalf of Germany since Germany needed the manpower elsewhere:
I wouldn't expect that was the planned state of affairs for either Germany or Bulgaria though, but more like a temporary expediency, so the original map with Serbia is what was initially executed and planned.
Okay, sure, but then what about Egypt? I'm pretty sure Italy's long-term plan was to annex it, not just have a puppet state. Same with Albania, which you showed with a different color
I'm basing it off the the maps on the first page.
Italy's long term plans versus medium term plans probably requires two maps (as would all Axis nation plans). As far as I'm aware Italy's plans for Albania were exactly what they did in OTL - set up a country in personal union with Italy and for all practically purposes governed from Italy. Despite annexing areas such as Dalmatia from Yugoslavia and having a pliant Albania totally under their control, they never pushed for formal annexation at any point. Making it a part of Italy seemed to be super-long-term plans.
Added Brazil and Argentina. Some of the Nazis' long-term goals included the political penetration and support of the Integralists in Brazil and far-right nationalists in Argentina, both countries which also have notable German populations.
Don't have much to add on to this, but I cleaned up the border colors a bit since some of them used the coast color, and others used a border color. They should all use the border color now.
I also added borders to the unclaimed areas (they're just 1942 OTL borders), and colored two islands in the Azores/Canaries and an island off the coast of China that were still "unclaimed." I would've done the same for Japanese Siberia, but I left it because it didn't seem as obvious as the others (maybe they were left for a rump Soviet Union or something).
Spoiler: spoilering because visually it's not that different from the last post
Someone should add that stuff we learned about the plan to give land back to the native americans
Anybody else think it wouldn't hurt to show territories with overlapping claims as striped?
I think it'd be a good addition, showing all those conflicting claims
In OTL, Perón was cautiously neutral. He was more aligned with Italy than Nazi thought (he even forced some German inmigrants to lower the Nazi flag and hoist the Argentine one in Villa General Belgrano). I would assume than in this ASB scenario of total Axis Victory he would get the South Atlantic Islands and Antartica. (Though there would be competing Chilean claims in the later). If he remained in power, he would probably be more friendly to Mussolinni than Hitler, but who knows how politics might develop in such a world.
This is mostly especulation, as I don't recall any especific plans in Argentina other than "stay neutral", but here's my take, with the Argentine 1940-50s~ provincial borders:
I vaguely recall there were more clear Axis plans for South America though I am not sure.
Perón OTL wanted to extend his Justicialist ideology beyond Argentina to all Latin America via the awesomely named A.T.L.A.S but he found limited success.
1940s fascists were more busy fighting each other than hating Africans. Sure, they hated them and thought they were inferior, but white supremacy, as in including all whites, is more of a modern thing.
Yeah, and back then their hatred extended to other, "inferior" whites, like Slavs.
speaking as a white guy who's mostly Germanic but identifies as Italian and is also partly Slavic, that's almost certainly because the definition of "white" is so loose and has changed so much across history as to basically be meaningless--remember, little more than a century ago the Help Wanted signs were typically appended with "No Blacks or Irish" despite the latter being "undeniably" white today and plenty of people descended from the discriminated-against Irish doing the exact same things done to their ancestors (lookin' at you, O'Reilly, you racist piece of fucking garbage)
I honestly have no idea what's going on there. I assume the Japanese just forgot to include it in their plans, but they're pretty big islands so that doesn't quite seem right.
Also since there's multiple different colouring methods being used, and since we're almost done with the map, some kind of key would be useful.
Did Argentina have an official claim on those islands in the 30s/40s?
Yes, the issue even appeared in some Peronist propaganda. The Malvinas were claimed since the British occupied them in 1833, the Georgias, Sandwich and Orcadas since 1904 or so, and Argentine Antartica since 1941. They all officially form part of Tierra Del Fuego province (more properly, Tierra Del Fuego, South Atlantic Islands, and Argentine Antartica Province).
I don't think Perón ever thought about a military invasion, but I'm pretty sure that if Britain loses WWII in such an (ASB) scenario, he would lose no time in taking them.
Yeah, I considered unifying the interior borders and different country shades, but I figured I'd leave it in case I messed something up.
I don't think there were any concrete plans, just some musings on the topic by Hitler or others. The land would probably have roughly corresponded to the land the tribes were entitled to under broken treaties.
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