Discussion in 'Alternate History Maps and Graphics' started by Beedok, Jun 15, 2014.
Step aside, Christ, there's a new redemptive sacrifice in town.
French revolutionaries and their ideas.
Reorganizing the departments in a fair and square manner.
Well, maybe not all that fair but obviously very square...
(in the end they rejected it of course)
But the USA and Canada adopted the first model, nevertheless
Was Corsica going to be exempt from the grid-pocalypse?
depends on where you live, in the US most places that have a grid set-up, they didn't have a significant population (not counting Native Americans) prior to its set-up. So there was no pre-established cultural or population considerations.
"So then, dear French people, how would you feel about a Swiss Corridor?" Germany 1931.
found on Reddit, R/PropagandaPosters. Not sure if this counts but it does look insane.
I love it. Pure insanity, and it nicely calls out corridor-loving people on their bullshit.
"Oh, kind of like how we can access Corsica by sea but we don't throw a hissy fit about it," said France.
"No, not like that at all, we need Danzig, we need it, we need it!!" cried the Nazis, and decided to go get mad at Slavs for a bit.
"Hey, this has been ours for centuries and is actually full of our people," said Germany.
"Fuck off, you lost, so we'll just take what we want," said the idiots who thereby greatly helped in causing the Nazis to even exist.
Since 1793, during the Second Partition, before which it had been part of Poland for even longer. Danzig was always a red herring for Polish annexation and was admitted as such by German officials. It was entirely reasonable to give Poland access to the sea so that it might have a better chance at survival as an independent state free from German or Russian imperialism.
Always this argument. It's the same as "natural borders" bullshit. When will people learn that the only thing that matters is who lives there, and what they want? Danzig was literally over 95% German. That's not a "red herring", that's just a fact. Anyway, I'm not going to repeat this discussion here -- there was a discussion here a while back where I argued my point in some detail -- and will only say that I simply value self-determination much, much (in fact: infinitely) higher than "what is reasonable for [x]". Had Danzig been 95% Polish, it should've gone to Poland. But it wasn't. It was German. So the criminal thing here was never that Germany wanted Danzig, but that a bunch of spiteful bastards wanted to deny Danzig to Germany, no matter what resentment this caused.
People like that made Hitler possible, and they deserve to burn in hell next to him.
It sounds like you prioritize self-determination for Germans rather than value self-determination in general. Access to the sea was crucial for allowing Poland to establish diplomatic and trade relations with countries other than its immediate neighbors which itself was crucial for its survival, as otherwise it would have simply been partitioned again between Germany and Russia; as had happened before, as indeed happened again, and as was Germany's real reason for making a fuss over Danzig. There are surely communities of wackos in the US that would vote to be independent if given the chance; that doesn't mean they should be allowed to do so. That you can equate Hitler with the authors of Versailles is astounding. Versailles was not a good treaty, I agree, but a few Germans being made to live in Poland is emphatically not the same as systematic genocide against the Jews, Romani, Slavs, etc.
I see that you're conveniently leaving out the fact that aside from Danzig, most of the rest of the Polish corridor was majority Polish. Not that that mattered to Hitler of course, because again, Danzig was simply a casus belli, a pretense to invade.
You could actually read the thread I linked, instead of repeating a lot of assumptions I debunked there already. But whatever. You can have your opinion-- it's just that I think it's wrong. Not least in a moral sense.
No, I apply it to everyone, and as locally as possible. (My favourite country on Earth is Liechtenstein, which is already pleasantly tiny... consisting of just a handful of municipalities... each of which has a constitutionally recognised right to secede by democratic vote. It's almost perfection.) You seem to think that Polish economic interests correspond to "self-determination", but that's not how it works. That's why that map is so funny, and why you can't see it. Because the fact that Switzerland has no coastline doesn't give Switzerland a right to annex any part of France (except any hypothetical part that genuinely wished to join Switzerland)-- just as the fact that Poland had no coastline didn't entile Poland to any part of Germany (except any part that would genuinely wish to be Polish-- which for sure wouldn't include Danzig).
Most, yes. And most should indeed go to Poland. But not all. Conversely, Poland should probably get some bits that stayed German in OTL. In the thread that I linked, I posted this map as a rough mock-up of what an alternative proposal might look like, aimed at more closely respecting the actual situation. (But do observe that this is not some "final proposal", but rather an indication of what things could also have been like, if "who actually lives here" had been the prime consideration.)
I genuinely believe that it does mean that. Or at least: that it should mean that. You apparently prefer to force people to stay with somehing they don't like, rather than letting them do as they wish and go their merry way. I'm sure many people think that way, but I find that such an attitude is the truly "wacky" thing.
Germany and Poland are rightful Lithuanian clay! Gib!
I followed the link and didn't find your arguments particularly convincing. Suffice it to say, what you suggest seems to me to be in favor of anarchy instead of functional governance. Regardless, our disagreements clearly run deeper than this issue and you seem to think poorly of me so let's agree to disagree and leave it at that.
Lies! Vilnius and Berlin are rightfully polish cities!
Oh, to hell with it-- I claim everything between the Atlantic and the Urals for Neutral Moresnet. That should solve all disputes nicely. Right? Right.....?
How about dissolution of nation-states and formation of world government?
Also, the support for Nazism (or at least indifferent to what the Nazis preach) can be attributed to the whole "backstabbing" myth of which the Denzig issue was a result rather than cause.
Drawing up borders that value the functionality of one nation over another is an equal crime to the holocaust?
Separate names with a comma.