Proposals and War Aims That Didn't Happen Map Thread

athgtq16129

BrobDingnag said:
Didn’t even Cecil Rhodes himself eventually come around to the idea that the whole anglosphere should join the US?
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Didn't he propose the opposite, with the US becoming a British colony again, or the US joining a British-led commonwealth/imperial federation of the sorts?
 
Bomster

Bomster

TheEmperorYT said:
"Great Britain’s difficulties were not solved by the large American loan made in 1946. Indeed, Russell saw little hope for England’s economic future. With the prospective loss of empire, England was a declining nation according to Russell because, as he put it, “Britain’s industrial system is not equipped for the modern age.” With these ideas in mind, Russell shocked many Americans in March 1947 when he suggested that England, Scotland, Wales, and Ireland should be invited to become American states. He even thought that Canada and Australia also might want to make similar arrangements. Russell told startled listeners that such a political union would create freer world trade and reduce economic competition. Moreover, the resulting political combination would provide a navy of unrivaled power. To some extent, no doubt, his idea of incorporating Great Britain into the United States was encouraged by his reverence for Anglo-Saxon culture and the desire to keep it strong. Although some critics gave Russell credit for being sincere, his proposal gained no support either at home or in England. Reaction varied from the charge that he did not know what he was talking about to the comment that he must be joking."
– Fite, Gilbert C. (1991) Richard B. Russell Jr., Senator from Georgia. University of North Carolina Press, p. 217
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Literally 1984
 
TheKutKu

TheKutKu

A 1560s plan to deport settle Huguenot... In Ottoman Moldova

Catherine de Medici and Huguenot Colonization, 1560–1567, Nate Probasco

Catherine and Charles devised a simple plan that would benefit both France and the Ottoman Empire. They wanted to transplant persecuted Huguenots and Lutherans from France and the Holy Roman Empire to Moldavia in Eastern Europe. The small tributary principality of the Empire on the western coast of the Black Sea had been under Ottoman suzerainty for decades by the 1560s and was ideally situated between the Empire and Spain’s allies in central Europe. The well-armed Protestants would help create a formidable buffer state, certainly something the Ottomans would appreciate. In addition to easing tensions at home, Catherine would have loyal French citizens nearer to the lucrative Ottoman trade market, which obtained goods not just from their expansive empire but also from points as far east as China.

The French delegation that departed for Istanbul in 1566 was led by Huguenot Guillaume de Grandchamp de Grantrie, who would serve as French ambassador to the Ottoman Empire from 1566 to 1571. During his meeting with Ottoman officials, he suggested that the French and Ottomans establish a military colony at Moldavia consisting of Huguenots and French and German Lutherans. Grandchamp put himself forward as the potential military leader of the state, and he agreed to marry the sister of the current voyvoda (military leader) of Moldavia in order to bring the alliance to fruition. He even offered to become voyvoda himself and pay 20,000 ducats annually to the Ottomans.

Maximilian’s mixed Catholic and Protestant army, so the new sultan did not want to take the risk. The likelihood of an attack from the Ottoman’s Muslim rivals the Safavid Empire only increased following Suleiman’s death. Selim was uninterested in military expansion and even left military decisions to his ministers, a first for an Ottoman Sultan. It is no surprise that he shunned the creation of a military colony. Selim’s father had ruled during the height of Ottoman power, so he had no reason to seek French assistance at the time. Yet, most scholars agree that 1566 marked a turning point in Ottoman history, as the Empire struggled as a result of poor leadership thereafter. Over the next few decades, the once dominant Ottomans became a second-rate power in Europe.

While the proposal came at a bad time for the Ottomans, it made sense for Catherine to seek a Huguenot haven in Moldavia. The Ottoman Empire was known for its religious toleration, having accepted Protestants starting in the middle sixteenth century. Muslims and Protestants shared a number of religious preferences, such as their rejection of idols, and members of each faith had a common enemy in Spain. Though Selim was not ready for a colony in 1566, 3 years later the French and Ottomans formed a new agreement that allowed French merchants to utilize all Ottoman ports. Within months, the French took command of European trade in the Levant. The mere threat of a FrenchOttoman alliance was enough to strike fear in the hearts of the Hapsburg leadership. Huguenots might have had a chance to avoid the religious wars by emigrating to the Empire in 1569, but by that time France’s Protestants had lost their good graces with Catherine.
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Entre la Couronne et L’Évangile : les diplomates protestants au service du roi de France (ca. 1530 – ca. 1630), Alexis Vuillez

Moreover, one of the missions the diplomat {Grandchamp de Grantrie] had been entrusted with by Catherine de Médicis and Charles IX when he left for the Orient was to propose to the Sultan the creation of a Protestant military colony in Moldavia, intended to welcome French Huguenots and fight the Emperor318.

[...]


Faced with this failure, Grandchamp then tried to convince the Sultan to appoint him Prince of Moldavia and Wallachia, in return for a tribute of 20,000 ducats, in order to enable him to settle them with French Reformed. To get his project accepted, he claimed that the latter would have almost the same religion as the Turks : indeed, the agent asserted that the Huguenots refused statues and paintings in their places of worship, and even that they would eventually admit circumcision! {...] These proposals were not taken too seriously by the Porte, but were met with a favourable response from Prince John II of Hungary.
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The Ottoman Empire and the world around it, Suraiya Faroqhi
in 1566/973–4, the ambassador Grantrie de Grandchamp attempted to gain Ottoman consent for the establishment of a large number of Huguenots, as well as French and German Lutherans, in Moldavia. These families were supposed to form a military colony against the Habsburgs, while removing a source of contention from the French kingdom. Grantrie de Grandchamp even took a personal interest in this scheme, attempting to marry the sister of the voyvoda of Moldavia, and at one time offered to fill the position of voyvoda himself, paying an annual tribute of 20,000 ducats
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Talk about an insane plan!
But now I'm convinced that in a substantial percentage of Mid 16th century POD timeline the southern Ukrainian wineyards are held by famillies of weirdly French-sounding name.
 

tus3

Sharklord1 said:
- Switzerland and France both accept the deal:
From a certain standpoint, it makes some sense. Alsace-Lorraine had strategic purposes of keeping Germany protected from a resurgent France. Giving it to a neutral nation makes a buffer, and a buffer recognized internationally to be neutral. Yet it also alters some strategic thinking on the German side. If the Germans respect Swiss territorial neutrality, then the occupation of Belgium is likely a must. But then again, the Germans did not respect Belgian neutrality, nor did they focus on Alsace as a major part of the Schlieffen plan. Therefore, would Switzerland be included in the thrust into France in WW1? I don't feel like it would have, only because Alsace Lorraine, unlike Northern France, was far more defensible and carried with it the expectation of violating the neutrality of a country meant to be, by all European powers, neutral. At the same time though, the Swiss have a problem in trying to defend it, as it would have limits as to how many men it could fight. If it joined France instead, the Swiss could hold, at the expense of possibly being roped into a future European conflict. However, I'm not confident in this viewpoint. Swiss neutrality was partially made by the fact they lived in the alps, and never were expected to have any ambitions on other major powers. In other words, they basically had a specific area that they were allowed to operate and expand within, if national policy dictated it.
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Hmm, I'm pretty sure that even if Switzerland somehow were to end up with Alsace-Lorraine, butterflies would ensure that the Great War would be very different.

And even if we still end up with the same sides somehow, I suspect the French might be the ones to invade a neutral country both because they would want Alsace-Lorraine and in order to support their Russian ally by attacking Germany through Switzerland. Possibly, the German General Staff would anticipate this and base their strategy around launching a counterattack on the French when they invade Switzerland.

Though, as it seems at first glance a bit ASB-y to me for Switzerland to end up with Alsace-Lorraine, that point might be moot anyway.
 
Votre Idéolinguiste Local

Votre Idéolinguiste Local

Wendell said:
Did anyone tell Denmark this in 1919?
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Yeah but Denmark's neutrality was removed earlier than that by essentially Germany bullying them throughout the late 19th and early 20th, kind of forcing their hands on many matters of policy and influencing their nobility to support pro-Berlin measures, and then was very cavalier in the first world war (more than Britain at least) about sinking Danish boats they could have possibly mistook for British ones and then not apologising about it.
 
Albidoom

Albidoom

propbaijan.jpg


https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/1dfrdet
 

Cholima

Analytical Engine said:
Do you mind me asking which ones are not included?
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he had like two or three maps for both brasil and south africa, and I didn't do all of them as you can see. same with china, russia and india I think. Also obviously I could have missed something, or included some reddit meme making fun of him for that matter (it's really hard to destinguish between his actual tweets and satire)
 
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