Proposals and War Aims That Didn't Happen Map Thread
- Thread starter Beedok
- Start date
I like the alternate Iowa border wherein the state extends to the Minnesota river and still borders the Missouri River.
Attachments
There was an alternative proposal made before the Treaty of San Stefano that looked like this, having 2 bulgarias instead of one
Here's the info I found on the Russian wikipedia for it:
The Russian project, developed by Prince Alexei Tsereteli and the American consul Eugene Schuyler , provided a unified Bulgarian autonomous region, including the Danube Vilayet , Sofia Sanjak , Plovdiv and Sliven Sanjaks from the Adrianople Vilayet and the Bulgarian-inhabited part of Macedonia .
However, representatives of other great powers objected to it, especially the Austrian Foreign Minister Count Andrássy and the British representative the Marquis of Salisbury. Thus, the final draft of the conference included an English proposal to divide Bulgaria vertically into two autonomous regions - Eastern, with a center in Tarnovo , and Western, with a center in Sofia . At a meeting on 8 January 1877, the Marquis of Salisbury stated that "No areas are introduced into the boundaries of these two provinces forming Bulgaria in which the Bulgarian population does not predominate or areas in which the atrocities of the previous summer were not carried out. "
The argument that the British officials Salisbury and Elliot made for the vertical division of the Bulgarian lands was that the Eastern Province was inhabited mainly by Turks and Greeks , and required separate administration. In fact, their goal was to prevent Russia from strengthening its position and, through the mixed Eastern Province, to block its road to Constantinople and the straits. Thus, the Bulgarian regions were cut off from the Aegean Sea and Vodensko, Kukushko and Doiransko, Western Thrace , most of Eastern Thrace and Rhodopia remained outside them.
During the preliminary meeting, the ambassadors of the Great Powers developed a common project to solve problems in the Western Balkans and to establish peace between Serbia and Montenegro and the Ottoman Empire. The project provided for the creation of an autonomous region of Bosnia and Herzegovina with a single supreme administration. Serbia received the lands occupied by Turkey during the war of 1876, as well as Maly Zvornik, the subject of a long-term dispute between the Turks and Serbs, and most of the rebel Herzegovinian districts (Zubtsy, Banyany, Piva, Drobnjaki, Sarantsy, Kolasin ) were annexed to Montenegro , with a fortified the city of Nikšić and the lands of Kuča-Drekalovich, Kuča-Krajina, Vasojević and Malo and Veliko Brdo, which were part of Albania , with the fortresses of Spuzh and Zabljak . In order to provide the Montenegrins with access to the sea, navigation along the Boyana River was to be declared free and the Turkish fortresses on Lake Skadar were destroyed.
Other terms were also proposed regarding administration:
- The governors general of both regions are appointed by the Porte with the consent of the great powers for a 5-year term. (The Russian project, which provided for a single governor of the Bulgarian provinces, who should be elected by the local population, was rejected). The rulers may be Turkish or foreign subjects, but must be Christians.
- Each region will have a legislative body - an assembly elected by all residents of the region over 25 years of age who have a certain property qualification.
- The regional assembly elects an administrative commission (government) with a governor for a term of four years.
- The regions reserve 70% of their income for their own needs.
- The local militia is created from Christians and Muslims, but regular Turkish army units remain in the fortresses and cities.
- Circassians are to be evicted from both regions.
- The main administrative unit becomes the canton with 5 to 10 thousand people distributed according to their religion (Christian or Muslim). Several cantons form sanjak, which is governed by a mutesarif (of Christian or Muslim faith, depending on the predominant population of the sanjak), who is appointed by the Porte.
- An International Monitoring Committee was created to monitor the implementation of these agreements for one year, which was to have a 4,000th convoy detachment of Belgians or Italians at its disposal.
I'm not sure exactly why this was shot down, other than general Ottoman objections, since the great powers appear to have made some similar and but less favorable terms in this first proposal
Here's the info I found on the Russian wikipedia for it:
The Russian project, developed by Prince Alexei Tsereteli and the American consul Eugene Schuyler , provided a unified Bulgarian autonomous region, including the Danube Vilayet , Sofia Sanjak , Plovdiv and Sliven Sanjaks from the Adrianople Vilayet and the Bulgarian-inhabited part of Macedonia .
However, representatives of other great powers objected to it, especially the Austrian Foreign Minister Count Andrássy and the British representative the Marquis of Salisbury. Thus, the final draft of the conference included an English proposal to divide Bulgaria vertically into two autonomous regions - Eastern, with a center in Tarnovo , and Western, with a center in Sofia . At a meeting on 8 January 1877, the Marquis of Salisbury stated that "No areas are introduced into the boundaries of these two provinces forming Bulgaria in which the Bulgarian population does not predominate or areas in which the atrocities of the previous summer were not carried out. "
The argument that the British officials Salisbury and Elliot made for the vertical division of the Bulgarian lands was that the Eastern Province was inhabited mainly by Turks and Greeks , and required separate administration. In fact, their goal was to prevent Russia from strengthening its position and, through the mixed Eastern Province, to block its road to Constantinople and the straits. Thus, the Bulgarian regions were cut off from the Aegean Sea and Vodensko, Kukushko and Doiransko, Western Thrace , most of Eastern Thrace and Rhodopia remained outside them.
During the preliminary meeting, the ambassadors of the Great Powers developed a common project to solve problems in the Western Balkans and to establish peace between Serbia and Montenegro and the Ottoman Empire. The project provided for the creation of an autonomous region of Bosnia and Herzegovina with a single supreme administration. Serbia received the lands occupied by Turkey during the war of 1876, as well as Maly Zvornik, the subject of a long-term dispute between the Turks and Serbs, and most of the rebel Herzegovinian districts (Zubtsy, Banyany, Piva, Drobnjaki, Sarantsy, Kolasin ) were annexed to Montenegro , with a fortified the city of Nikšić and the lands of Kuča-Drekalovich, Kuča-Krajina, Vasojević and Malo and Veliko Brdo, which were part of Albania , with the fortresses of Spuzh and Zabljak . In order to provide the Montenegrins with access to the sea, navigation along the Boyana River was to be declared free and the Turkish fortresses on Lake Skadar were destroyed.
Other terms were also proposed regarding administration:
- The governors general of both regions are appointed by the Porte with the consent of the great powers for a 5-year term. (The Russian project, which provided for a single governor of the Bulgarian provinces, who should be elected by the local population, was rejected). The rulers may be Turkish or foreign subjects, but must be Christians.
- Each region will have a legislative body - an assembly elected by all residents of the region over 25 years of age who have a certain property qualification.
- The regional assembly elects an administrative commission (government) with a governor for a term of four years.
- The regions reserve 70% of their income for their own needs.
- The local militia is created from Christians and Muslims, but regular Turkish army units remain in the fortresses and cities.
- Circassians are to be evicted from both regions.
- The main administrative unit becomes the canton with 5 to 10 thousand people distributed according to their religion (Christian or Muslim). Several cantons form sanjak, which is governed by a mutesarif (of Christian or Muslim faith, depending on the predominant population of the sanjak), who is appointed by the Porte.
- An International Monitoring Committee was created to monitor the implementation of these agreements for one year, which was to have a 4,000th convoy detachment of Belgians or Italians at its disposal.
I'm not sure exactly why this was shot down, other than general Ottoman objections, since the great powers appear to have made some similar and but less favorable terms in this first proposal
Last edited:
No wonder Turkey decided to go to war not to accept these "proposals"There was an alternative proposal made before the Treaty of San Stefano that looked like this, having 2 bulgarias instead of one
Here's the info I found on the Russian wikipedia for it:
The Russian project, developed by Prince Alexei Tsereteli and the American consul Eugene Schuyler , provided a unified Bulgarian autonomous region, including the Danube Vilayet , Sofia Sanjak , Plovdiv and Sliven Sanjaks from the Adrianople Vilayet and the Bulgarian-inhabited part of Macedonia .
However, representatives of other great powers objected to it, especially the Austrian Foreign Minister Count Andrássy and the British representative the Marquis of Salisbury. Thus, the final draft of the conference included an English proposal to divide Bulgaria vertically into two autonomous regions - Eastern, with a center in Tarnovo , and Western, with a center in Sofia . At a meeting on 8 January 1877, the Marquis of Salisbury stated that "No areas are introduced into the boundaries of these two provinces forming Bulgaria in which the Bulgarian population does not predominate or areas in which the atrocities of the previous summer were not carried out. "
The argument that the British officials Salisbury and Elliot made for the vertical division of the Bulgarian lands was that the Eastern Province was inhabited mainly by Turks and Greeks , and required separate administration. In fact, their goal was to prevent Russia from strengthening its position and, through the mixed Eastern Province, to block its road to Constantinople and the straits.
The argument that the British officials Salisbury and Elliot made for the vertical division of the Bulgarian lands was that the Eastern Province was inhabited mainly by Turks and Greeks , and required separate administration. In fact, their goal was to prevent Russia from strengthening its position and, through the mixed Eastern Province, to block its road to Constantinople and the straits. Thus, the Bulgarian regions were cut off from the Aegean Sea and Vodensko, Kukushko and Doiransko, Western Thrace , most of Eastern Thrace and Rhodopia remained outside them.
During the preliminary meeting, the ambassadors of the Great Powers developed a common project to solve problems in the Western Balkans and to establish peace between Serbia and Montenegro and the Ottoman Empire. The project provided for the creation of an autonomous region of Bosnia and Herzegovina with a single supreme administration. Serbia received the lands occupied by Turkey during the war of 1876, as well as Maly Zvornik, the subject of a long-term dispute between the Turks and Serbs, and most of the rebel Herzegovinian districts (Zubtsy, Banyany, Piva, Drobnjaki, Sarantsy, Kolasin ) were annexed to Montenegro , with a fortified the city of Nikšić and the lands of Kuča-Drekalovich, Kuča-Krajina, Vasojević and Malo and Veliko Brdo, which were part of Albania , with the fortresses of Spuzh and Zabljak . In order to provide the Montenegrins with access to the sea, navigation along the Boyana River was to be declared free and the Turkish fortresses on Lake Skadar were destroyed.
Other terms were also proposed regarding administration:
- The governors general of both regions are appointed by the Porte with the consent of the great powers for a 5-year term. (The Russian project, which provided for a single governor of the Bulgarian provinces, who should be elected by the local population, was rejected). The rulers may be Turkish or foreign subjects, but must be Christians.
- Each region will have a legislative body - an assembly elected by all residents of the region over 25 years of age who have a certain property qualification.
- The regional assembly elects an administrative commission (government) with a governor for a term of four years.
- The regions reserve 70% of their income for their own needs.
- The local militia is created from Christians and Muslims, but regular Turkish army units remain in the fortresses and cities.
- Circassians are to be evicted from both regions.
- The main administrative unit becomes the canton with 5 to 10 thousand people distributed according to their religion (Christian or Muslim). Several cantons form sanjak, which is governed by a mutesarif (of Christian or Muslim faith, depending on the predominant population of the sanjak), who is appointed by the Porte.
- An International Monitoring Committee was created to monitor the implementation of these agreements for one year, which was to have a 4,000th convoy detachment of Belgians or Italians at its disposal.
I'm not sure exactly why this was shot down, other than general Ottoman objections, since the great powers appear to have made some similar and but less favorable terms in this first proposal
They probably should have in hindsight, though even without hindsight, it was a bad decision to provoke the Russians and cause your benefactors to be unable to support you because your army goes on a genocidal blood letting. The real proposal that went through was still plenty harsh, and they ended up losing more than they did in the initial proposal. The two bulgarias were still supposed to be a part of the Ottoman Empire, but in the real proposals they became independent in all but name (more or less). Meanwhile, the Ottomans would never have had to pawn Cyprus off to the British, would've retained Bosnia and Herzegovina against the Hapsburgs, even if the borders would be nightmare, and may have been able to hold their own diplomatically against the reduction of their loss of land and influence in North Africa and the Balkans. Not to mention, Tanzimat wasn't properly finished yet, and provoking a war would've still been costly.No wonder Turkey decided to go to war not to accept these "proposals"
Plus Britain and France supported the Ottoman Empire as a check to Russian expansionism, and Austria-Hungary was always going to have an issue with the pan-slavic movements in the Balkans, which of course involve Germany. So they could at least use this as a way to diplomatically rope the great powers into other Russian-led designs on their territories, at only cost to their prestige, which already was in the mud by this point.
However, like almost all Ottoman foreign policy decisions from 1774 onward, they proved to be extremely over confident and poorly thought out. After Russia beat the Ottomans, they lost even more prestige, plenty of land, Britain rethought its policy towards the Ottomans, and most European powers chipped away at the remnants of their Empire through financial interference.
By 1877 Britain and France were no longer supporting Ottoman Empire like they did 20 years ago, they had decided to carve it up seeing it as hopeless, it all changed when Ottomans declared banktrupcy on Russian ambassadors advice in 1875 (yes i know
) and decided to postpone debt payments to their erstwhile allies, british and french investors.Ottoman situation isn't so different than what Ukraine faced not so long ago, they were expected to agree to a partition of their country so the Russians won't invade. The Great European powers decided that they should of course agree to it because they can't fight Russia and win right, so why bother and be so unreasonable about stuff like sovereignty and internationaly recognized borders, not to mention all this happened after serbia declared war to Ottoman empire and lost the war. So after defeating Serbia they had to agree to giving up half the empire because, well you know they werent christians and they shouldnt really be in europe... Nothing really changes.
Ottoman public debt - Wikipedia
Serbian–Ottoman Wars (1876–1878) - Wikipedia
Last edited:
A Reddit find (by way of Tumblr because that's just how I roll):
Noteworthy to me are the following aspects of it:
1) Berlin and Vienna become border cities
2) The Czechoslovak Corridor is halfway included, likely with the implication that the southern half should go to Yugoslavia
3) Carpathian Ruthenia is no longer included
4) Czechoslovakia annexes the German portions of the Bohemian Forest (Bayrischer Wald), the Ore Mountains, and the Vogtland (Plauen is clearly marked as Czechoslovak)
5) Czechoslovakia annexes Silesia southwest of the Oder/Odra as well as Lusatia
Also I couldn't find anything about this "Association for Just Borders for Czechoslovakia" that didn't refer to the Reddit post I sourced it from.
Noteworthy to me are the following aspects of it:
1) Berlin and Vienna become border cities
2) The Czechoslovak Corridor is halfway included, likely with the implication that the southern half should go to Yugoslavia
3) Carpathian Ruthenia is no longer included
4) Czechoslovakia annexes the German portions of the Bohemian Forest (Bayrischer Wald), the Ore Mountains, and the Vogtland (Plauen is clearly marked as Czechoslovak)
5) Czechoslovakia annexes Silesia southwest of the Oder/Odra as well as Lusatia
Also I couldn't find anything about this "Association for Just Borders for Czechoslovakia" that didn't refer to the Reddit post I sourced it from.
Most of the results I found discussing it are unsurprisingly in Czech. And might say that Czechoslovakia needs a warm-water port..!
Excerpts from the publication accompanying the map, found at https://www.historieblog.cz/2019/01/komentar-ceska-uzemni-nenasytnost/, via Google translate:
"... For these reasons, we consider it just and necessary to annex to the original territory of Czechoslovakia from September 1938 both Lusatia, Silesia and the Oder River with the city of Breslau (Breslau, today Wrocław) and to adjust the borders in Upper Silesia in such a way as to ensure a fair share of the Upper Silesian Coal Basin to the extent corresponding to the needs of our economic life, the return of the Těšín region with the border from 1918 and the territories ceded to Poland in the Orava and Spiš regions, the shifting of the southern borders against Hungary to the Vácov (Vác) – Mátra line and to the Bukové Mountains (Bükk Mountains), as well as the adjustment of the south-eastern borders so that we have a connection with Romania again."
"We demand against Austria, i.e., against Germany, the border along the Danube as far as Regensburg, the border along the watershed between the rivers Naab and Vils, the mountain junction of Smrčín (today Smrčina, Hochficht) and the shifting of the border from the Erzgebirge to Saxony."
"We demand that the town of Szczecin, with its wide surroundings at the mouth of the Oder and with a territorial strip along this river as far as Frankfurt an der Oder, where it borders on Czechoslovakia, be organized as an independent republic, in the ports of which Czechoslovakia and Poland would have their own free zones under the administration of their consuls and under the possible supreme supervision of the USSR. It is the only way to guarantee Czechoslovakia commercial access to the sea and its own port..."
"a free connection with Yugoslavia and through this with Trieste, in the future probably an independent, free port on the Adria, with its own Czechoslovak port zone..."
The lack of Subcarpathian Rus makes me think this is something pro-Soviet elements floated just to see if the Allies would go for it.A Reddit find (by way of Tumblr because that's just how I roll):
Noteworthy to me are the following aspects of it:
1) Berlin and Vienna become border cities
2) The Czechoslovak Corridor is halfway included, likely with the implication that the southern half should go to Yugoslavia
3) Carpathian Ruthenia is no longer included
4) Czechoslovakia annexes the German portions of the Bohemian Forest (Bayrischer Wald), the Ore Mountains, and the Vogtland (Plauen is clearly marked as Czechoslovak)
5) Czechoslovakia annexes Silesia southwest of the Oder/Odra as well as Lusatia
Also I couldn't find anything about this "Association for Just Borders for Czechoslovakia" that didn't refer to the Reddit post I sourced it from.
Well, Ruthenia was after ww2 lost cause for Czechoslovakia.
Also, all those adjutsed "new" territories are from enemies/defeteated states (apart of Poland, but Teschen was disputed before ww2)
Whole concept remind me Hanus Kuffner post-ww1 idea (mostly same borders I think)
Btw interesting borders of Poland.
And I see this paired nicely with one of expansive Yugoslavias that goes into Burgenland.
Was this based on Samo's Empire? Or was that either too obscure or simply not considered when making the borders?A Reddit find (by way of Tumblr because that's just how I roll):
Noteworthy to me are the following aspects of it:
1) Berlin and Vienna become border cities
2) The Czechoslovak Corridor is halfway included, likely with the implication that the southern half should go to Yugoslavia
3) Carpathian Ruthenia is no longer included
4) Czechoslovakia annexes the German portions of the Bohemian Forest (Bayrischer Wald), the Ore Mountains, and the Vogtland (Plauen is clearly marked as Czechoslovak)
5) Czechoslovakia annexes Silesia southwest of the Oder/Odra as well as Lusatia
Also I couldn't find anything about this "Association for Just Borders for Czechoslovakia" that didn't refer to the Reddit post I sourced it from.
Three separate proposals for Appalachian states, 1784-85 (with some interpretations because of how shit 18th-century peoples' geography skills were):
- Frankland, "bounded by a Meridian line that will touch the confluence of Little River near Ingles Ferry; thence down the Kanhawa to the Ronceverte or Green Briar River; thence Southwest to latitude 37° North; thence along the same to the meridian of the rapids of the Ohio; South along that meridian until it touches the Tenesee or Cherokee river; down the same to the part nearest of latitude 34°; South to the same; and eastwardly on that parallel to the top of the Apalachian mountains; and along the highest parts of the same and the heights that divide the sources of the waters that fall into the Mississippi from those that empty into the Atlantic, to the Beginning [sic]".
- Two states, with the first "bounded on the East by the great Kanhawa as high as the confluence of the Ronceverte [Greenbrier River]; the Ohio, on the north; and on the West and South, by a Meridian line drawn from the mouth of Salt river until it intersects the Shawanoe or Cumberland river, up that river to the mouth of that branch of it called Rock-Castle, up the said river Rock-Castle to the Ausioto or Bush Mountain [Cumberland Mountain], thence a direct line to the confluence of the Ronceverte [sic]"; and the second state "bounded by a line extended due South from that part of the Cumberland river where the Meridian line drawn from the mouth of Salt river will touch it, until it reaches Elk river, down that river to the Tenasee, thence South to the top of the Apalachian [Allegheny] Mountain, eastwardly along the same to a point from whence a north line extended would meet the Kanhawa at the mouth of Little river near Ingles Ferry, and down that River to the Ronceverte [Greenbrier River], westwardly along the boundary as above described for the Kentuckey Country [sic]".
- Franklin, "beginning at a point on the top of the Alleghany or Appalachian mountains, so as a line drawn due north from thence will touch the bank of New river, otherwise called Kenhawa, at the confluence of Little river, which is about one mile above Ingle's ferry; down the said river Kenhawa to the mouth of the Rencoverte, or Green Briar river; a direct line from thence to the nearest summit of the Laurel mountain, and along the highest part of the same to the point where it is intersected by the parallel of thirty-seven deg. north latitude; west along that latitude to a point where it is met by a meridian line that passes through the lower part of the rapid of Ohio; south along the meridian to Elk river, a branch of the Tennessee; down said river to its mouth, and down the Tennessee to the most southwardly part or bend in said river; a direct line from thence to that branch of the Mobile called Donbigbee [Tombigbee]; down said river Donbigbee to its junction with the Coosawatee [Coosa] river, to the mouth of that branch of it called the Hightower; thence south to the top of the Appalachian mountain, or the highest land that divides the sources of the eastern from the western waters; northwardly along the middle of said heights and the top of the Appalachian mountain to the beginning [sic]".
Anyways, the borders of all three proposals set me off in a viscerally negative way because I almost went insane trying to figure this shit out, only to realize physiographic maps exist, which helped me greatly,
Good find! I have to say the third one for Franklin going from Mississippi to Virginia is especially cursed. I always though Franklin was just supposed to be confined to that one small area in Tennessee.
Interestingly, the original Frankland proposal can go hand-in-hand perfectly with Jefferson's rectangle states because it follows his two guidelines: Western border on the meridian of where the Falls of the Ohio is located (Louisville, KY); and its northern border being at an odd latitude number.
Polygonia at the far northwest amirite? (For the record I haven't opened and closely looked at the map so idk if it is named already)
They appear to be proposed British colonies that he considered while writing his book Travels through the Interior Parts of North America, in the Years 1766, 1767 and 1768, first published in 1778.
From the Appendix: "I have partitioned the country which lies adjacent to the eastern borders of the Mississippi into plantations or subordinate colonies; chusing such lands only for this purpose as by being contiguous to some river, might enjoy all the advantages I have before pointed out. These I have divided by dotted lines, and numbered; that future adventurers may readily, by referring to the map, chuse a commodious and advantageous situation. I shall also here give a concise description of each, beginning, according to the rule of geographers, with that which lies most to the north."
He then describes his proposed colonies № I. through XI. such as:
"№ VIII. This colony having the River Ouabache [Wabash] running through the centre of it, and the Ohio for its southern boundary, will enjoy the advantages of a free navigation. It extends about one hundred and forty miles from north to south, and one hundred and thirty from east to west."
Whenever will North Wales recieve homage?it amuses me that one of these states/regions is "New South Wales"