Proposals and War Aims That Didn't Happen Map Thread
- Thread starter Beedok
- Start date
Christian or Muslim?
Leaving the religious question aside, there would probably be a good deal of overlap between "Rumelian" and "Macedonian" .... though I think most linguists at the time considered Macedonian dialects to be more akin to Bulgarian.....
That's a very pro-Greek ethnolinguistic map of the southern Balkans, not a territorial claim map, which is why it doesn't show anything in Anatolia. As far as I know there isn't any Greek government that ever claimed territory up to the spine of the Balkan Mountains in Central Bulgaria.
That's a good alt-history topic, but there was never really anyone that called themselves "Rumelian". The term was based on the fact the Byzantines called themselves Romans which the Turks then turkified into Rumelia. It was an identity that could mean Roman, but the term itself was what the Ottomans and eventually Turkish settlers called the region. Pre-modern national identities (which can be as late as 1900) were centered around family/clan based, or land/state based identities. These were really hard to pinpoint because in many cases, writers and scholars did not write about the lives of the common or peasant folk that often, though they did on occasion. Rumelia could totally have risen before the age of nationalism, but the way people identify (in Europe especially) was now based on common language, culture, religion (in some cases but we're in the balkans so its a given), ideology, race, and other things that people decide create nation-states. Because the idea of Rumelia was inherently somewhat Turkish in nature, it was now not even considerable to Serbs, Bulgarians, Bosnians, Albanians, etc. Only Turkish people would ever used it in the modern age, but the fact there was a "Turkey" was much more attractive to people who called themselves "Turks". If it was an identity that could have emerged, it would not only have to be before 1878, but pre-dating the rise of nationalism in the Balkans, or from the first naming of the eyalet of Rumelia in 1365, to basically 1800 or earlier depending on whatever historians consider the date to be.
That's a lot of time, but because it was a land-based identity, it would've never lasted in the modern era
Elmer_Homero
Banned
Hey. I thought about trying to adapt a map that they published here a while ago to QBam, but I can't find the map itself, I checked more than 80 pages and all was in vain. The map in question was a plan by the SS near the end of the war to divide all of Europe into small nation states or counties or something. I don't know, please help me find it. 
I just reread through this entire thread over the course of the last several days searching for interesting maps I may have overlooked and I didn't see anything like that. Maybe you're confusing the SS Ordenstadt of Burgundy proposal with one of the various maps of a united Europe partitioned into states that have been posted in this thread?Hey. I thought about trying to adapt a map that they published here a while ago to QBam, but I can't find the map itself, I checked more than 80 pages and all was in vain. The map in question was a plan by the SS near the end of the war to divide all of Europe into small nation states or counties or something. I don't know, please help me find it.
Is this it?Hey. I thought about trying to adapt a map that they published here a while ago to QBam, but I can't find the map itself, I checked more than 80 pages and all was in vain. The map in question was a plan by the SS near the end of the war to divide all of Europe into small nation states or counties or something. I don't know, please help me find it.
You'd probably need an 1807/1808 break up of the Ottoman Empire to do something like this, Ali Pasha may need to be involved.
Anyone has a real-life and contemporary map of the proposed Principality of the Pindus? a proposed Aromanian (a Romance-speaking minority group in Greece and the Balkans) independent state or autonomous prefecture* of Greece (independent or autonomous? what kind of state it would be?), it was proposed both during WW1, and then later in WW2, but I can only find modern alternate history maps of it, I cannot find maps of it dating from this time period.
This old low-resolution map on Wikipedia claims to be the recreation of a real-life map from 1942-1943, useful to mention that I am looking for its WW2-era one in particular, but a WW1 era one is very appreciated as well.
I thought that the Principality of the Pindus would also include Greece's Arta Prefecture, since this (biased?) map shows a considerable number of Aromanians living in it.
*Prefectures were the old administrative divisions of Greece.
Edit: Forgot that there is this map of "Terra Vlachorum" proposed at the 1919 Paris Peace Conference, but I cannot quite get the gist of what it would look like.
This old low-resolution map on Wikipedia claims to be the recreation of a real-life map from 1942-1943, useful to mention that I am looking for its WW2-era one in particular, but a WW1 era one is very appreciated as well.
Well, someone would have to go to the Military Museum of Bucharest to take a photo of this map I guess.
I thought that the Principality of the Pindus would also include Greece's Arta Prefecture, since this (biased?) map shows a considerable number of Aromanians living in it.
*Prefectures were the old administrative divisions of Greece.
Edit: Forgot that there is this map of "Terra Vlachorum" proposed at the 1919 Paris Peace Conference, but I cannot quite get the gist of what it would look like.
Last edited:
I have a question, what was the Germans' plan for their occupied territories in Greece. For example, the little bit of Thrace still technically part of Greece, what did the Germans plan for that or for Thessalonica?
As far as I'm concerned, it was supposed to be ceded to Turkey if it had joined the war in the Axis side
Wikipedia claims that Germany wanted to directly annex Thessalonica to the Reich, but I could find only one source for this, and it also does not makes a lot of sense geographically-wise, a victorious Axis Italy would also not want any German presence in the Mediterranean to challenge them.
In my Axis victory TL (which is more or less based on their OTL plans), after Germany leaves Greece, it transfers all of its occupied northern territories to Bulgaria and Turkey respectively, both in order to not give them to Italy, and to also punish Greece for their future mass-rebellion against Axis occupation, this is more or less the status of Greece in my TL:
- The German-occupied section of Evros Prefecture (as already discussed on the previous page), Chios, Lesvos, Lemnos, and Agios Efstratios are given to Turkey.
- Northern Florina Prefecture, northern Kozani Pref., and northern Thessaloniki Pref. are given to Bulgaria.
- Mount Athos becomes an independent Vatican-esque permanently neutral state.
- Thesprotia Pref., western Preveza Pref. and western Arta Pref. are given to Albania (Italian-controlled).
- Ioannina and Kozani prefecture are re-established as the semi-independent Principality of the Pindus, which also serves as a buffer state against Bulgaria, I was thinking of giving to the Pindus the rest of Arta and Thessalokini Prefs. but I am not so sure of that, hence why I made this post.
- The rest of pretty much all Greek islands are annexed by Italy, Greece becomes a diminished rump state similar to its territory as of 1881, but lacking even the Cyclades, which Italy also intended to annex IOTL.
- Cyprus is under Italian control as an Albania-esque protectorate under the King of Italy, IOTL Fascist Italy was confused over what should be done with Cyprus, some proposed it to be outright annexed to Italy given its strategic location, and some others proposed to give Cyprus to Greece (Enosis) as a compensation for its huge territorial losses, but ITTL Greece is farther away from Cyprus, has almost no islands left under its control, and also due to their rebellion, Italy does not allows them to finally fulfill Enosis.
How was Thessalonica going to be given to Turkey? it would become an awkward enclave if this occurred, since Bulgaria already has access to the Aegean, I never read anything proposing this, this would also severely anger Turkey.
Apparently Germany offered to give Thessalonica to Yugoslavia if they joined the Axis, which they did IOTL, but they of course got coup'd, Germany would also want to keep Greek areas with plenty of Jews under their sphere of influence for obvious reasons, so it isn't too much out of the ordinary to let the German-friendly Bulgaria annex Thessalonica instead of leaving it to Italian hands.
Last edited:
This is all very interesting. So it seems that the occupied territories will most likely be given to Bulgaria or even a bit given to East Thrace. The city of Thessalonica might itself remain a German port.
Remember that this is just speculation that I made for my timeline, in real life we have contradictory or vague Axis plans for Greece, as an important example of this, Italy wanted to annex pretty much all Greek islands (Cyclades, Sporades, Aegean, Crete, Ionian), Greece would be reduced to a tiny state with only the Saronic isles and Euboea left, but Germany was against that plan.
In my TL, Germany lets this happen anyway because 1. they are much more preoccupied with Generalplan Ost, 2. they are also busy stopping resistance and partisan movements elsewhere in Europe, and 3. they let Greece be reduced to a tiny weak state as a retribution for its massive rebellion, Italy is also more powerful than IOTL and they are not as incompetent and dependent on Germany as they were IOTL.
What do you mean "East Thrace"? the Northern Aegean coast is only controlled by Bulgaria or Turkey, that is about it.
Italy wouldn't like this however.
In my TL, Pindus is an extremely Manchukuo-esque artificial state, having been formed simply to weaken Greece even more, and to also form a buffer state against Bulgaria, I am not sure of what its territory looks like so far, but I know that Aromanians are themselves a minority in their own country.
Greece is way too much weakened to do anything, Greeks were themselves heavily punished by losing all of their islands and Macedonia, in theory Greece is in a capable position to launch a Rwanda-like genocide against the Aromanians (especially since Greeks are the majority of the population of the Pindus), but not while Italy is present dictating their every move, also in my TL, the Principality of the Pindus was formed c. 20 years or so after WW2, not during the war or the 1940s like how most people in here would assume.
Apparently IOTL even Italy refused to give any kind of autonomy for the Aromanians, the Axis puppet Hellenic State also rejected this proposal of autonomy for Aromanians within Greece as well, also since it is called the "Principality of the Pindus", who would be its prince? perhaps someone from the Italian Royalty, like how Prince Aimone was crowned as Tomislav II of Croatia (but he later regretted this)?
Without citing any sources, Wikipedia states that Alcibiades Diamandi proposed to:
Since it is Italy who dominates Greece, then the latter option is the obvious one, a Romanian enclave in Greece would look interesting though.
Last edited: