Proposals and War Aims That Didn't Happen Map Thread

Several years afterwards, another Austro-Russian alliance was formed in 1981 to partition the Ottoman Empire and restore the Byzantine Empire under Catherine's grandson, Konstantin Pavlovich:

Yellow: Hapsburg Empire
Green: Russian Empire
Blue: Kingdom of Dacia to be ruled by Grigory Potemkin
Red: New Byzantine Empire
Cyan: Venice
1981?
 
By 1772, the Russo-Turkish War was not going so well for the Ottomans. This concerned the Austrians, who feared the Russians might expand their territory all the way to the Straits and gain total dominance in the Balkans. Kaunitz, the Austrian state chancellor, had convinced Empress Maria Theresa to sign an accord with the Ottomans to try and preserve the integrity of their state, but this accord stopped just short of being an actual military alliance, because the Austrians did not wish to go to war with Russia.

In January of 1772, Kaunitz floated a number of different ideas to deal with the present crisis. The plan that was ultimately adopted was what we now call the First Partition of Poland - Russia would withdraw from Ottoman territory and content itself merely with gaining control over the Crimean Khanate, while the territorial ambitions of Empress Catherine would instead be sated by a mutual division of Polish territory. Many of Kaunitz's plans, however, involved a partition not of Poland, but of the Ottoman Empire. After all, the Turks seemed to be on the verge of collapse anyway - why not join Russia in carving them up rather than trying to keep them intact?

The most novel and ambitious of Kaunitz's proposals envisioned the complete ejection of the Turks from Europe and the creation of two new kingdoms: The first consisting of Thrace, Macedonia, and Albania with its capital at Constantinople ruled by Catherine's lover Gregor Orlov, and the second consisting of the Morea, Crete, Cyprus, and unspecified Aegean islands to be ruled by an Austrian archduke. Kaunitz actually preferred partitioning the Ottomans to partitioning Poland and tried to push the empress in that direction, but to no avail. Maria Theresa's policy was guided by her own morality, and she would not consent to carving up the territory of a neighbor whom she had recently promised her protection. Even if such vast lands could be acquired, she wrote, they would be "purchased too dearly—at the expense of our honor, the glory of the Monarchy, and our good faith and religion." Ironically, the Austro-Turkish accord which Kaunitz had himself pushed for became the empress's reason to oppose his partition plans. As a result, it would eventually be the Poles, not the Turks, who vanished from the map of Europe.



Direct acquisitions by Russia and Austria are indicated with stripes. The border between Austrian and "Rumelian" land is speculative, as are the names of the new states - Kaunitz's plan did not lay down precise borders or state what the new kingdoms would be called. The fate of the Danubian Principalities was not mentioned, so I have left them in, minus "Lesser Wallachia" (Oltenia) which was to be annexed by Austria. The Austrians considered a direct Austrian-Russian border to be undesirable, so it stands to reason that Moldavia would be maintained as a buffer state.
Heh, Austrian Cyprus and Morea... had Austria at that time even at least one proper port in Med. sea? (Terst was Venetian, I think...)
 
Heh, Austrian Cyprus and Morea... had Austria at that time even at least one proper port in Med. sea? (Terst was Venetian, I think...)
Trieste was Austrian at this time, but it's true that Austria was not exactly a naval power (that is, they literally had no navy). Kaunitz also discussed a variant of this plan in which the Austrians would offer the Morea to Venice in exchange for Venetian Istria and Friuli, which would probably be a more useful acquisition (assuming the Venetians would agree to it). It's unclear what the fate of the islands would be in that scenario.

Another variant was the possibility of ceding Moldavia and Wallachia to Poland. Kaunitz anticipated that the Prussians might not accept such massive territorial gains by Austria and Russia without some gains of their own, which would inevitably have to come at Poland's expense. Kaunitz suggested that one way to deal with this would be to give Poland the Danubian Principalities as compensation for their losses to Prussia, which would also maintain the buffer between Austrian and Russian territory. It would have looked rather silly on a map, but Poland would extend from the Baltic to the Black Sea once more.
 
Trieste was Austrian at this time, but it's true that Austria was not exactly a naval power (that is, they literally had no navy). Kaunitz also discussed a variant of this plan in which the Austrians would offer the Morea to Venice in exchange for Venetian Istria and Friuli, which would probably be a more useful acquisition (assuming the Venetians would agree to it). It's unclear what the fate of the islands would be in that scenario.

Another variant was the possibility of ceding Moldavia and Wallachia to Poland. Kaunitz anticipated that the Prussians might not accept such massive territorial gains by Austria and Russia without some gains of their own, which would inevitably have to come at Poland's expense. Kaunitz suggested that one way to deal with this would be to give Poland the Danubian Principalities as compensation for their losses to Prussia, which would also maintain the buffer between Austrian and Russian territory. It would have looked rather silly on a map, but Poland would extend from the Baltic to the Black Sea once more.
Well, not sure about Walachia but there was a precedens of Moldavia being polish vassal...
 
A pretty high-quality map of a Lusatia proposal I found, which shows both the maximal definition of Lusatia (white and striped) and the minimal territory needed for a state of the Sorbs (white only).

 
By 1772, the Russo-Turkish War was not going so well for the Ottomans. This concerned the Austrians, who feared the Russians might expand their territory all the way to the Straits and gain total dominance in the Balkans. Kaunitz, the Austrian state chancellor, had convinced Empress Maria Theresa to sign an accord with the Ottomans to try and preserve the integrity of their state, but this accord stopped just short of being an actual military alliance, because the Austrians did not wish to go to war with Russia.

In January of 1772, Kaunitz floated a number of different ideas to deal with the present crisis. The plan that was ultimately adopted was what we now call the First Partition of Poland - Russia would withdraw from Ottoman territory and content itself merely with gaining control over the Crimean Khanate, while the territorial ambitions of Empress Catherine would instead be sated by a mutual division of Polish territory. Many of Kaunitz's plans, however, involved a partition not of Poland, but of the Ottoman Empire. After all, the Turks seemed to be on the verge of collapse anyway - why not join Russia in carving them up rather than trying to keep them intact?

The most novel and ambitious of Kaunitz's proposals envisioned the complete ejection of the Turks from Europe and the creation of two new kingdoms: The first consisting of Thrace, Macedonia, and Albania with its capital at Constantinople ruled by Catherine's lover Gregor Orlov, and the second consisting of the Morea, Crete, Cyprus, and unspecified Aegean islands to be ruled by an Austrian archduke. Kaunitz actually preferred partitioning the Ottomans to partitioning Poland and tried to push the empress in that direction, but to no avail. Maria Theresa's policy was guided by her own morality, and she would not consent to carving up the territory of a neighbor whom she had recently promised her protection. Even if such vast lands could be acquired, she wrote, they would be "purchased too dearly—at the expense of our honor, the glory of the Monarchy, and our good faith and religion." Ironically, the Austro-Turkish accord which Kaunitz had himself pushed for became the empress's reason to oppose his partition plans. As a result, it would eventually be the Poles, not the Turks, who vanished from the map of Europe.



Direct acquisitions by Russia and Austria are indicated with stripes. The border between Austrian and "Rumelian" land is speculative, as are the names of the new states - Kaunitz's plan did not lay down precise borders or state what the new kingdoms would be called. The fate of the Danubian Principalities was not mentioned, so I have left them in, minus "Lesser Wallachia" (Oltenia) which was to be annexed by Austria. The Austrians considered a direct Austrian-Russian border to be undesirable, so it stands to reason that Moldavia would be maintained as a buffer state.
That was mostly wishful thinking, although Ottomans were in decline for most of the 18th century, it was still beyond the capability of Austria and Russia to capture all the Balkans and throw Turks to the Asia. Unlike what most people think Ottoman Empire was primarily Balkan centered, and they did everything to protect the their Balkan provinces, Russian army had to wait a few more wars until 1829 to succesfully penetrate the Danube defences and advance really deep into Balkans.
 
That was mostly wishful thinking, although Ottomans were in decline for most of the 18th century, it was still beyond the capability of Austria and Russia to capture all the Balkans and throw Turks to the Asia. Unlike what most people think Ottoman Empire was primarily Balkan centered, and they did everything to protect the their Balkan provinces, Russian army had to wait a few more wars until 1829 to succesfully penetrate the Danube defences and advance really deep into Balkans.
That's true... if you read the bios of some of the most prominent personages in the OE, right up until the end in 1918-1919, you'll find a large number were born in Greece, Rumelia/Bulgaria, Albania, Bosnia and the Sandzak... I think the number of Muslim Ottomans that were displaced and resettled in what is now Turkey through the course of the Balkan conflicts from 1877 or so on is frequently (and sadly) overlooked by later historians...
 
D3C62F43-3F22-44E0-AB97-82ECF7C240A8.jpeg


Two years ago, there was a petition to change the borders of the Turkish province of Batman. This is what it would have looked like

It seems like a shitpost, but I assure you, this is a real proposal.
 
In the late 1920's and early 1930's, Communist Party of the United States member Harry Haywood proposed his own version of a independent African-American nation. According to Ibid, "The document was written by John Pepper under the title “American Negro Problems.” The article was published in the October 1928 issue of The Communist, and called for a Negro Soviet Republic within the United States." Totentanz0 mentions this in his Soviet Union plans document. Here is a map of what this country would look like:
Republic of New Afrika Harry Haywood.png
 
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