Proposals and War Aims That Didn't Happen Map Thread

Discussion in 'Alternate History Maps and Graphics' started by Beedok, Jun 15, 2014.

  1. AUGGP Well-Known Member

  2. Umbric Man Umbric Manned

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    Yes! Don’t anyone dare lump in the Venerable Mad with those goons!
     
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  3. Thande I could not fail to disagree with you less Donor

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    Former member Highlander did a map based on this (and expanding the same philosophy farther west) here: https://alt-reality.deviantart.com/art/Jefferson-s-West-90990083

    I just got Zamoyski's Rites of Peace about the Congress of Vienna, which is full of rejected post-Napoleonic Wars peace plans (including some proposed while Napoleon was still in power). If anyone wants to try Worlda'ing them I can describe them verbally here.
     
  4. Chris S Member

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    I think that would be awesome. Go ahead!
     
  5. Alex Richards A mapper I, from near Dar-bai. Donor

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    I know that for Switzerland pretty much everything from restoring the 1798 borders, to giving Gex and the Chablais (which had been briefly conquered in the 1530s) to the Swiss, to letting France keep Geneva (and more besides) was proposed at some point.
     
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  6. Skallagrim Not the one from YouTube. Different other fellow.

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    Coming back for a moment to Jefferson's proposal for the Old West: I've noted, time and again, that msps based on his plan don't actually correspond to what he proposed. The map linked earlier on this page has elements added/adapted by its creator, as doles every other version I've seen. That's not very surprising, considering that the original sketch outlining Jefferson's plan is pretty crude and also... well, flawed. Jefferson's notes mention where he wants that nice, straiht north-south border in the 'middle' to cross the Ohio. He imagined that this point was south of Lake Michgan. It's actually south-east of Lake Michigan. I the same way, he indicates a western boundary of Georgia, which he again imagines directly to the south of the point where his imagined straight-line border crosses the Ohio. Again, it's acually to the south-east. Jefferson's map was simply incorrect. (Besides other issues, we will also see that Jefferson greatly overestimated the size of his proposed state of Washington. It would be rather small.)

    I've mocked up some variations of his proposal, each (in one way or another) attempting to stay as close as possible to what he suggested.


    Variation 1 (using a border based on Lake Michigan):

    [​IMG]

    As one can see, this leaves the western states much smaller than the eastern ones. Most noticably, it yields a very oversized Georgia.


    Variation 2 (using a border based on the falls of the Ohio):

    [​IMG]

    This border is far more 'equitable' in the distribution of land to the various states, and (presumably for that reason) it's the border most often used when Jefferson's proposal is presented. It still yields a larger Georgia than Jefferson had in mind, though-- and we often see that later editor's add their own flourishes by partitioning Georgia in some way (which Jefferson never proposed).


    Variation 3 (using a border based on Jefferson's proposed western border for Georgia):

    [​IMG]

    Here we see the actual western border Jefferson had in mind for Georgia, further east than in the other proposals. Georgia thus ends up much more like it is in OTL. Extrapolating that borderline further north, however, we see at once that the western states are now noticably larger than the eastern ones.


    Each of the above could of course be used. But none reflects exactly what Jefferson's orginal proposal was aiming for. If Jefferson's proposal had been adopted, and accurate land measurement had followed, I don't think any of the above three plans would have been chosen without modification. I can think of two possible 'compromises' that might better reflect the intention behind Jefferson's plan:


    Compromise 1 (no single north-south border):

    [​IMG]

    This compromise does away with that single unbroken line, instead using three different north-south borders. It seems less neat, but it keeps Jefferson's vision of straight north-south lines, while also reflecting where he believed those lines ought to be drawn. The states are roughly proportioned as Jefferson seems to have intended.


    Compromise 2 (a single north-south border that's not a purely straight line):

    [​IMG]

    This compromise retains the idea of one border. Rather than trying for a straight line going north-south, this border connects the various points Jefferson indicated in as direct a way as possible, without trying to remain perfectly straight the entire way. This may look a little weird, but again, the states end up being proportioned pretty much as Jefferson suggested.
     
  7. Achaemenid Rome Iron Age City-State

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    This one seems the best, and the "broken but relatively proportionate straight lines" borders seems like it would fit pretty well with the OTL borders of Great Plains states.
     
  8. MasterSanders Every Man a King

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  9. Skallagrim Not the one from YouTube. Different other fellow.

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    I agree that this is the best option. It leaves that rather small Washington state, of course. A solution to that would be to enlarge that state on the east. Draw a straight line down from the (then-disputed) Erie Triangle, until meeting the Allegheny, and then following that to Pittsburgh, then tracing the Monongahela to Virginia´s northern border, and cutting west from there till you meet the Ohio. But in any case, that deviates from Jefferson's plan, too-- so I'll refrain from speculation.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2018
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  10. Chris S Member

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    I dunno, I think some Georgians would say it yields a just-about-right Georgia....
     
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  11. Mr. Bubbles Well-Known Member

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    Hey, nice work!
     
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  12. Skallagrim Not the one from YouTube. Different other fellow.

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    Let me rephrase: a very oversized Georgia compared to the other states. I'm certain there are Georgians who feel that their state should rightfully extend to the Mississippi-- nay, the Pacific! ;)
     
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  13. Mr. Bubbles Well-Known Member

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    Golden Circle.png
    The Golden Circle, the Confederacy's imperial ambitions to seize the world's cotton and sugar supplies, creating what they called a tropical empire. Naturally, all of these would be slave states.
     
  14. Skallagrim Not the one from YouTube. Different other fellow.

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    Otherwise known as: "Aren't you glad this didn't happen?"

    Incidentally, if we're going for full claims, note that Southern slavocrats already claimed this before the CSA was ever a thing, and tht their ambitions included Kansas, all of Arizona (you only have them claim OTL's "Confederate Arizona", but they wanted the northern half too, up to OTL NM/Arizona's northern border) and a proposed Southern Californian slave state (often called "Colorado" in ATL, because of the river, making it a likely name) which would be everything south of that same OTL NM/Arizona northern border, just extended west to the Pacific. Also, while claims in South America were never defined, the implication was very much "everything we can grab", so the idea of them intentionally leaving Venezuala a coastline strikes me as improbable.

    Revision:

    Golden Circle-edit.png

    (Otherwise known as: "Now that's even worse, damnit!")
     
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  15. Chris S Member

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    Well, it was Georgia's right by grant of the Royal Charter in the 1730s. It's only fair. All those states in the way, like Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, Texas, Arizona etc....they only exist by dint of Georgia's magnanimity in not pressing it's rightful claims. ;)
     
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  16. Mr. Bubbles Well-Known Member

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    Bolivian Corridor.png
    In 1975, Augusto Pinochet of all people proposed granting land from Chile and Peru to Bolivia, finally allowing them to regain direct access to the ocean. The Lluta River would form Chile's new northern border and it would receive an equal amount of Bolivian territory in return. The reason this proposal failed was due to Peruvian dictator Francisco Morales-Bermúdez disagreed on the idea, but proposed that the nearby town of Arica be governed by all three nations. Pinochet disagreed on such a complicated situation and the project was ultimately abandoned.
     
  17. Thande I could not fail to disagree with you less Donor

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    I don't know if anyone has ever drawn a complete coast to coast map, but this gives you an idea (1770s)

    [​IMG]
     
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  18. Chris S Member

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    It was also due to the fact that the territory in question was originally Peruvian territory and that by the peace treaty that ended the War of the Pacific between Peru and Chile, Chile was not allowed to ceded former Peruvian territories to any other country without asking Peru first. Peru rejected Pinochet's proposals on those grounds and then came up with the counter-offer (which makes sense as Arica used to be a Peruvian town), which Pinochet in turn rejected.
     
  19. Mr. Bubbles Well-Known Member

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    CSA.png
    MBAM version
     
  20. Clandango Disestablishmentarianist

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    Just imagine this in world with a long running or more official Condor Pact. Arica might have become something like the capital of South America.