Proposals and War Aims That Didn't Happen Map Thread

Discussion in 'Alternate History Maps and Graphics' started by Beedok, Jun 15, 2014.

  1. Hassan-i-Sabbah Well-Known Member

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    The SSNP is apparently still active in Syria today but they've basically abandoned those goals by this point.

    However it would be interesting to see what can be done with this sort of country. What resources would it have and how high could you get it's GDP if you run it well enough?
     
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  2. oshron Emperor of Rplegacy

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    isn't that basically the Fertile Crescent Plan? :p
     
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  3. James the AH Fan Just your average alt history kid.

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    No, it's based on the Neo-Assyrian Empire's borders.

    The SSNP (used to) claim that since Syria is "named" after Assyria, then they have the right to claim those borders.
     
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  4. Hassan-i-Sabbah Well-Known Member

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    Dumb justification, good borders.

    Like that is a really good map and I love the way it looks. I love the borders and I love to think about it's position on the map. It's kind of like at the center of the Middle East and, if you think about the Middle East as a sort of Center of the World, it is directly at the center of the world.

    Ya know what would be cool? Building a space elevator in the center of the map and calling it the "Tower of Babel". It's a pretty badass name I know.
     
  5. oshron Emperor of Rplegacy

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    you're just asking for trouble if you name something after the Tower of Babel, though :p
     
  6. Hassan-i-Sabbah Well-Known Member

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    But if it doesn't fall down you're left with a badass name for a space elevator.
     
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  7. merkmuds Singularitarian/Posthumanist/Transhumanist

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    Sadly a space elevator must be built at the equator. Orbital rings would be a better choice.
     
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  8. Analytical Engine Monarchist Collectivist Federalist

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    Actually, no they don't.

    If you have a space elevator in the northern hemisphere, one in the southern hemisphere, and a third in either, connected to the same point in geocentric orbit, you can space them as far north and south as you like.
     
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  9. Hassan-i-Sabbah Well-Known Member

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    Can you make the space elevator at the center of the mentioned map the first space elevator or do you need the other two before you can do that?
     
  10. Analytical Engine Monarchist Collectivist Federalist

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    If you can keep the geocentric station stable, then you should be able to build several at once and connect them together at the orbital.

    Of course, if there is an existing equatorial station with an attached space elevator, that becomes easier.

    Ultimately, it comes down to how much are you willing to spend on the project. If you are at the point where even building space elevators is relatively trivial, then you can have dozens of the things scattered around the world.

    Of course, if you have a dynamic orbital ring, you could connect all of the elevators to it, and link them together using space trains.
     
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  11. Hassan-i-Sabbah Well-Known Member

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    Let's say that the first space elevator was built in the center of the map being discussed, would this be possible or would it fall apart? My idea is to have this "Tower of Babel" be the first and main space elevator which is then followed by space elevators at the equators then space elevators in Europe, the Americas, Asia, and Africa. From there, they are all connected in a sort of orbital ring which makes transportation of materials from space much easier.

    But I expect the first space elevator, the dubbed "Tower of Babel" to be the hardest one to build given that it is the first space elevator of course. I think we'd need one space elevator to be built before we can have the resources to build a network of them. I expect the "Tower of Babel" to be very historically significant in that regard and, due to being the only space elevator for quite some time, I expect a city to grow around the area surrounding it.

    Eventually, since we'd get better materials from space and the design would be improved, this "Tower of Babel" would look rather "backwards" compared to the second space elevator built in Europe or Asia or in the US. I doubt repairs would be made to the Tower of Babel since it would be too large to modify and because a civilization capable of creating a couple of space elevators isn't necessarily capable of wholesale modifying such megastructures as well (indeed I think that the first couple space elevators would be built in a modular fashion like the ISS). The same goes for the possibility of demolishing it as well.

    Thus, the Tower of Babel would eventually just become a historical relic. A new space elevator would be built in the border between Iraq and Iran and replace the Tower of Babel. The city which once surrounded it and benefited from it's economic fruits would turn to become a historical city or get most of it's economic wealth from other enterprises. If technological progress is as quick as it was in the 19th to 20th centuries, eventually there would be a new movement within the city or civilization that would seek to revive and improve this Tower of Babel. Since technology has progressed, we now have the technology to repair the Tower of Babel and make it just as efficient as the newest generation of space elevators.

    Of course, there is no need for the Tower of Babel. The revival movement is just a cultural one, an attempt to revive this historical monument and tourist attraction by making it start working again.
     
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  12. Analytical Engine Monarchist Collectivist Federalist

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    It depends on the strength of the material used. Without additional space elevators to balance out the stress, you would need to deal with that somehow.

    As for the orbital, either you would keep it in geocentric orbit, or you would have to expend energy keeping it somewhere else.

    Either you would need for an existing anchor point, or to have multiple elevators built at the same time.
     
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  13. DracoLazarus Ouroborus Cataphractus

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    I personally think the first space elevator / stairway to heaven / skylift / whatever would be built in Guyane, or somewhere similar.
     
  14. Skallagrim Not the one from YouTube. Different other fellow.

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    Good-looking, but not good. That proposal is basically a recipe for ethnic cleansing. The two obvious issues are Israel (I think I can guess what the plan is in that regard...) and the mountainous areas in north and north-east (inhabited by Turks and Kurds who will hate this plan with a passion). The Kurds can probably be coerced against their will, as OTL demonstrates, but annexing those Turkish areas means war... with a NATO member.

    Reduce the plan to leave those areas out, and it just becomes a big North Arabian state, which would be more feasible. Still runs the risk of Sunni-Shi'a conflict, though-- but I suppose a secularist constitution with guaranteed rights for both groups (presumably based on "sovereignty of local communities") could probably keep that in check.
     
  15. Hassan-i-Sabbah Well-Known Member

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    WARNING: Rambling ahead!

    Or, or we could have an anarchist society there in those borders. That way you solve all those sectarian problems although not instantly. From what I can tell, focusing on fostering a common working class culture is a pretty good way of dealing with sectarianism but you also need to deal with the physical boundaries between sects and people. In which case, going for a similar system to Switzerland in how ethnic groups and minorities are organized or copying A Pattern Language's ideas on sub-culture boundaries is a good way to deal with this.

    However, the Palestine-Israel conflict is going to need a somewhat different solution. An anarchist society would definitely take a "no state approach" to the Palestine-Israel conflict but, given that this anarchist movement, in order to be successful, would have to be Arab or at least native in some capacity I feel that this anarchist society would also be far more sympathetic to Palestine. This is going to be a tricky issue because I'm not entirely sure how an anarchist society would deal with this problem and, for all intents and purposes, we want to avoid having a "Reconstruction" sort of travesty where all attempts at fostering peace are half-assed.

    The best way, in my opinion, to deal with this problem without dislocating as little people as possible is:

    1. To build new towns, cities, and homes for Palestinians. A cool way to do this is to have a sort of "World's Fair" for architects all around the world to show off new buildings and ideas for these Palestinian towns, cities, and homes (displaced or homeless Israelis would be included as well) and whether these plans come to fruition is based on what Palestinian communities or groups choose.

    2. Give Palestinians the right to return.

    3. Since Israel is a first world country and most first world countries have lots of unused buildings and housing that is vacant because their owners make more money off of them being empty rather than inhabited, all those buildings would probably be given to poor or homeless Israelis and Palestinians.

    4. Organize the neighborhoods in a way where Israelis and Palestinians are separated but still mixed and integrated (this is what I was referencing with Switzerland and A Pattern Language) so that, eventually they become mixed and tolerant of one another.

    My goal, although very ambitious, is to make Palestinians and Israelis see each other as the same group 500 years into the future in the same way Arabs, despite their major differences, still have solidarity with one another.

    For the Kurdish issue, it would be better to just let Rojava run itself. I would personally like it if Rojava or Democratic Confederalism extended into the entirety of Kurdistan as a whole. The way Iraqi Kurdistan is run is despotic and the rest of Kurdistan is under the oppression of Turkey and Iran. However, I would like for there to be a union between this Rojava Kurdistan and "Greater Syria" as well in a way similar to the EU. Open borders and economic activity as well as shared military commands.

    ***

    And, to go off-topic a bit, it kind of reminds me of the HRE for some reason. Idk why but the way it's borders are shaped and the diversity of the region itself. I would love if someone drew the internal divisions of this map in a manner similar to the HRE.

    EDIT: Here's the stuff I was talking about:

    Solving Ethnic Violence w/ Complex Systems

    Sub-culture Boundaries from A Pattern Language

    Mosiac of Sub-cultures
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2019
  16. Hassan-i-Sabbah Well-Known Member

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    This is somewhat disappointing.
     
  17. Analytical Engine Monarchist Collectivist Federalist

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    I'm not saying that you couldn't do it. But you would need to take into account a lot more stress than building it at the equator, or in conjunction with others.
     
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  18. merkmuds Singularitarian/Posthumanist/Transhumanist

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    [​IMG]
     
  19. Skallagrim Not the one from YouTube. Different other fellow.

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    You know I love ideas like this (Holy Roman Anarchism, Batman!), but I must note that the apparent creators of this map -- Syrian Social Nationalist Party -- appear to have different ideas, which one might consider... less elegant. (Or let us say: ideas that I consider quite likely to cause a huge disaster if this country were to be established.)
     
  20. Hassan-i-Sabbah Well-Known Member

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    I mean, their flag even looks Nazi-ish.

    But the borders are awesome though. You can make any borders work if you put enough effort into it!
     
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