Proportional Representation in the USA

Hey beautiful people of AH!

Specifically looking for opinions of Americans or those who know America well.

PoD doesnt matter much to me; although I'm going to assume post-Watergate. Maybe even after 2000 and the hanging chads?

Anywho, what political parties do you think would be successful/come to exist and what would be the impact on American politics?

I'm imagining something like = STV-PR (like Ireland) from state-wide lists from each state; eliminates gerrymandering.

Senators are elected by STV

President is elected by popular vote? (Electoral college is abolished).

As stated, any PoD post 1900 is fine; all and any ideas welcome.
 
Some kind of scandal related to gerrymandering wrecks a state legislature in, say, the 1910s (or maybe 1930 in the beginning of the Depression.) In order to prevent future problems, the state’s Constitution is amended to allow for PR elections for the House (and the state legislature.)

This state is big enough that it’s relevant on the national level, and it becomes a hotbed of third-party activity. In that state, the GOP splinters, as do the Democrats. There’s probably a socialist movement and more of a voice for a welfare state, but there’s also a chance for fascism to have a voice.

The beginning is rough, but voter turnout increases, political engagement is way up, and people long-term are more pleased with how things are. And if the state is big enough, one can expect more ideas to come up in Congress, with more parties being represented,

The backlash will come during the HUAC days of the 1950s; however, one can reasonably expect that the 1960s will see more political reform along with civil rights reform. Expect several states - possibly in the northeast and out west - to take a flyer on PR. However, I don’t see it in the South - especially given Nixon’s Southern strategy, if that still comes through, the GOP will clamp down on the South and seek almost monolithic support. And with some exceptions, it will probably get it; the Senate and the Presidency will be largely unaffected by this. The key difference will be that there will likely be “unity tickets” on each side - so the Republicans may run a Republican who fits with most of the right-aligned parties and occasionally a VP who isn’t a Republican. Same with the Dems.

The only thing that could cause significant change there is that a popular vote compact (a la NPVIC) becomes more likely among PR states, and if enough sign on, it makes the electoral college irrelevant.
 
The Pennsylvania supreme court recently ruled that congressional districts needed to be reapportioned because in their overly gerrymandered state Democrats were getting around 45% of the vote or more and about 25% of the seats . But a better redistricting helped to fix this. In Massachusetts Republicans could probably win 35% of the state vote for congress but still win no seats because their support is so split up throughout the state. These are examples of maybe situations where a court could have stepped in and ordered PR if they could do so constitutionally.

I think historically if more cities had adopted PR they would have created the grass roots start and then the idea might have become mainstreamed. City councils in New York, Cleveland and Cincinatti plus several smaller cities had it in the first half of the 20th century. Cincinatti had it for awhile and Cambridge Mass still has it. Irish style stv in all cases. Perhaps had Ohio (where several towns like Ashtabula in addition to the big two) retained it in all their cities for a longer time it might have entrenched itself there. From there unto the state legislature wouldn't be too far fetched. I believe Oregon actually had a referendum rejecting PR for the state legislature.
 
Hey beautiful people of AH!

Specifically looking for opinions of Americans or those who know America well.

PoD doesnt matter much to me; although I'm going to assume post-Watergate. Maybe even after 2000 and the hanging chads?

Anywho, what political parties do you think would be successful/come to exist and what would be the impact on American politics?

I'm imagining something like = STV-PR (like Ireland) from state-wide lists from each state; eliminates gerrymandering.

Senators are elected by STV

President is elected by popular vote? (Electoral college is abolished).

As stated, any PoD post 1900 is fine; all and any ideas welcome.
An old post of mine:

***
Although all sorts of arguments have been given about why proportional representation is unsuitable for the US, it has in fact been tried here--in municipal elections. That it was ultimately repealed in city after city may be due in large part not to its "failures" but for doing what it was supposed to do: assuring representation for political and other minorities:

"Another factor working against defenders of proportional representation in many cities was the controversial nature of minority representation. Many Americans in the early twentieth century were hostile to political and racial minorities--the very groups aided by PR. Opponents of PR were not above fanning the flames of prejudice in their efforts to get rid of this reform. In particular, critics often played upon two of the most basic fears of white, middle class Americans: communists and African-Americans.

"In Cincinnati, race was the dominant theme in the successful 1957 repeal effort. The single transferable vote had allowed African Americans to be elected for the first time, with two blacks being elected to the city council in the 1950s. The nation was also seeing the first stirrings of the Civil Rights movement and racial tensions were running high. PR opponents shrewdly decided to make race an explicit factor in their repeal campaign. They warned whites that PR was helping to increase black power in the city and asked them whether they wanted a "Negro mayor." Their appeal to white anxieties succeeded, with whites supporting repeal by a two to one margin

"In New York City, fear of communism proved the undoing of proportional representation. Although one or two Communists had served on the PR-elected city council since 1941, it was not until the coming of the Cold War that Democratic party leaders were able to effectively exploit this issue. As historian Robert Kolesar discovered, the Democrats made every effort in their repeal campaign to link PR with Soviet Communism, describing the single transferable vote as "the political importation from the Kremlin," "the first beachhead of Communist infiltration in this country," and "an un-American practice which has helped the cause of communism and does not belong in the American way of life."(3) This "red scare" campaign resulted in the repeal of PR by an overwhelming margin.

"Just as the adoption of the single transferable vote in New York City prompted other cities to consider this reform, its well-publicized defeat there also encouraged repeal efforts in other PR cities. PR was abandoned in neighboring Long Beach and Yonkers in 1947 and 1948. Repeal campaigns also won in Boulder (1947), Toledo (1949), and Wheeling (1951). The PR movement never recovered from these defeats; and although supporters remained optimistic, the 1950s saw the repeal of PR in one city after another. By 1962, only Cambridge, Massachusetts retained this system.

"While the repeal of proportional representation in these American cities is taken by opponents as evidence that this voting system failed, proponents argue that it is more accurate to conclude that this system was rejected because it worked too well. They note that PR worked well in throwing party bosses out of government--bosses who never relented in their attempts to regain power--and it worked well in promoting the representation of racial, ethnic, and ideological minorities that were previously shut out by the winner-take-all system. For advocates of PR, then, it was the very political successes of this system that set the stage for a political backlash that was effectively exploited by its opponents and eventually led to the its demise in most of these cities.

http://www.fairvote.org/a_brief_history_of_proportional_representation_in_the_united_states

See also Robert J. Colesar, "Communism, Race, and the Defeat of Proportional Representation in Cold War America." http://www.fairvote.org/communism_r...oportional_representation_in_cold_war_america This article raises an interesting what-if: Suppose PR advocates had linked themselves with the Civil Rights Revolution, and had put more emphasis on the potential of PR to elect more members of ethnic minorities? True, this would make PR more unpopular than ever with many whites, yet it would at least give it a substantial favorable constituency in minority communities. (And in any event, PR could hardly have fared *worse* than it did in OTL!) Colesar explains the failure of advocates to press this point by noting that "While PR proponents had always vigorously championed the utility of the representation of minority opinion, they were less enthusiastic about racial, ethnic, or religious group representation. They never denied the reality that voters made judgments on such grounds, and never denied their right to do so. But they were not interested in encouraging voting by racial preference, and went to some pains to demonstrate that under PR, such divisions played no greater a role that they did in districting..."
 

marktaha

Banned
Say the reform movement of early last century had replaced a Senate elected by the legislatures with one elected by PR under the AMS system? Beginning in 1914 -each state elects one Senator,an additional vote under PR on party lines,the list consisting of all parties contesting at least 10 states in Senate election. Make it easier for candidates to stand as well. Say start in 1914 with 48 directly elected Senators and the list made up by a vote for one of the Democratic,Progressive,Prohibition, Republican and Socialist parties-take it from there.I have a possible thread on this subject but would need to know more.
 
I made a map based on American trying out a MMP system, on a federal scale in 1890. Probably implausible, but it was fun. I used OTL numbers and then tweaked them, along with making new districts and such for the states.
 
Summed that up for you.
Yeah I kinda felt the same way. I started this thread wondering if STV-PR could significantly improve the chances of the left and minorities in the USA.

Never have I so quickly received an answer which so thoroughly confirmed, "Yes it would, and that's why we dont have it".
 
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Some kind of scandal related to gerrymandering wrecks a state legislature in, say, the 1910s (or maybe 1930 in the beginning of the Depression.) In order to prevent future problems, the state’s Constitution is amended to allow for PR elections for the House (and the state legislature.)

This state is big enough that it’s relevant on the national level, and it becomes a hotbed of third-party activity. In that state, the GOP splinters, as do the Democrats. There’s probably a socialist movement and more of a voice for a welfare state, but there’s also a chance for fascism to have a voice.

The beginning is rough, but voter turnout increases, political engagement is way up, and people long-term are more pleased with how things are. And if the state is big enough, one can expect more ideas to come up in Congress, with more parties being represented,

The backlash will come during the HUAC days of the 1950s; however, one can reasonably expect that the 1960s will see more political reform along with civil rights reform. Expect several states - possibly in the northeast and out west - to take a flyer on PR. However, I don’t see it in the South - especially given Nixon’s Southern strategy, if that still comes through, the GOP will clamp down on the South and seek almost monolithic support. And with some exceptions, it will probably get it; the Senate and the Presidency will be largely unaffected by this. The key difference will be that there will likely be “unity tickets” on each side - so the Republicans may run a Republican who fits with most of the right-aligned parties and occasionally a VP who isn’t a Republican. Same with the Dems.

The only thing that could cause significant change there is that a popular vote compact (a la NPVIC) becomes more likely among PR states, and if enough sign on, it makes the electoral college irrelevant.
I have family in Ohio, so more than 90% of the time I've spent in the USA has been there; so many Presidents were born in Ohio! It's the second Virginia.

Anyway, this may just be because of familiarity; but I think Ohio would be a very interesting state to adopt this as you suggest. It's got a lot of diversity. The south feels very southern. The north feels very northern. Even the Northeast is notably more Northeastern than the West, which is notably more midwestern.

I could see it as a microcosm of American politics.

And apparently it was already in use in Cleveland, Toledo and Cincinnati!

What do you think?
 
I’m reminded of the time Nixon supported getting rid of the Electoral College, so maybe that attempt gets more momentum and succeeds. That could lead to future reform attempts down the line.
 
This fails to grasp the sze of the average US state. I want someone that represents my area not that grew up and currently lives 4+ HOURS away. Someone from that far away has no idea what i am concerned about. It would be like someone living in Wales being represented by someone living in Paris. There are good reasons the US government is elected the way it is. The country is HUGE and needs to have people that are relatively local represent them. And so on

The real issue is that the US foolishly limited the House membership to a very small number so that it fits in the capital. And this unfornuatly screws up the “local” representative idea. To give you an idea of what was intended. If you have an issue with you post master and mail delivery then you are supposed to talk to you federal congressmen. It was meant that these folks would be truly local. But to keep the number of them small they were limited and now represent to big an area. This makes them lose touch with the folks electing them. Making them represent the whole state would be even worse. Then suddenly all the representatives are coming from the big cities and 90% of the state has no one that represents it.
You get similar issues at County and city levels. My county is 36 miles on a side or about 1300 sq miles (about 3350 sq kilometers) My local representative lives in my small township and happens to be my lawyer, I think he has the best interest in my township and me in mind vs someone from the biggest city in the county wh is 45+ minutes and 30+ miles away.
If my county was a country it would be the 163 largest country in the workd. If my state was a country it would be 76th largest country in the world. It is just not practical for my elected officials to represent all of us at once because my County and state are just to large to be that homogenous, So you are basicly disenfranchising huge chunks of the areas with lower populations.
Now please note that the way districts are laid out is ridiculous and needs to be fixed. But getting rid if them is not the solution.
As for a state having 45% vote one party and 90% of the elected officials represent the other party…. That can happen honestly. if the two parties are truly evenly divided. But the odds of it if the districts are not manipulated to get said result are much slimmer. Also most local and state governments have an element that is element to represent the whole group. In my case the executive of my County is elected by everyone, and my State Senators (both State Level and Federal level) are elected by the whole state as is our governor,
 
This fails to grasp the sze of the average US state. I want someone that represents my area not that grew up and currently lives 4+ HOURS away. Someone from that far away has no idea what i am concerned about. It would be like someone living in Wales being represented by someone living in Paris. There are good reasons the US government is elected the way it is. The country is HUGE and needs to have people that are relatively local represent them. And so on

The real issue is that the US foolishly limited the House membership to a very small number so that it fits in the capital. And this unfornuatly screws up the “local” representative idea. To give you an idea of what was intended. If you have an issue with you post master and mail delivery then you are supposed to talk to you federal congressmen. It was meant that these folks would be truly local. But to keep the number of them small they were limited and now represent to big an area. This makes them lose touch with the folks electing them. Making them represent the whole state would be even worse. Then suddenly all the representatives are coming from the big cities and 90% of the state has no one that represents it.
You get similar issues at County and city levels. My county is 36 miles on a side or about 1300 sq miles (about 3350 sq kilometers) My local representative lives in my small township and happens to be my lawyer, I think he has the best interest in my township and me in mind vs someone from the biggest city in the county wh is 45+ minutes and 30+ miles away.
If my county was a country it would be the 163 largest country in the workd. If my state was a country it would be 76th largest country in the world. It is just not practical for my elected officials to represent all of us at once because my County and state are just to large to be that homogenous, So you are basicly disenfranchising huge chunks of the areas with lower populations.
Now please note that the way districts are laid out is ridiculous and needs to be fixed. But getting rid if them is not the solution.
As for a state having 45% vote one party and 90% of the elected officials represent the other party…. That can happen honestly. if the two parties are truly evenly divided. But the odds of it if the districts are not manipulated to get said result are much slimmer. Also most local and state governments have an element that is element to represent the whole group. In my case the executive of my County is elected by everyone, and my State Senators (both State Level and Federal level) are elected by the whole state as is our governor,
Y'know, Doug, I'm really tired of your responses. You CONSTANTLY make assumptions about posters, about what they "grasp" or what they intend. You misrepresent arguments and you resort to personal attacks when questioned.

I'm from Canada. I FULLY grasp the size of the average American state: About six times smaller than the average Canadian province.

You dont seem to understand an STV-PR system. You can vote for a local representative "The Home Town Party", and because its PR, you only have to get the number of votes that wouldve been required to win your local riding anyway. Look at the number of independent TDs in Ireland.

As for a larger parties...let's say under a PR system the Dems get 35% of the vote in California, and this gives them 19 Democrats out of 55. Those Democrats then district themselves, so they are each representing a different part of the state. The difference is in this system the "areas" covered might be larger, but you will have MORE representatives from different parties - more likely that they both live near you AND you voted for them.

ALSO...the largest districts in the USA are the single-rep states like Alaska and Wyoming. That wont change under STV-PR.

As to what the solution to redistricting is...that's not this thread, Doug. I asked about an STV-PR system in the USA. If you have an idea for American political reform that isnt STV-PR, that's cool. Different thread.
 
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Let’s rephr this. You are proposing keeping the individual districts but some home to a rated vote…. How? I have ypic three people running for my local (we will use this level for this discussion) In order to use a rated system i would have to classify them as 1st or Second choice. Being as rating your third out of three choices is mathematically pointless. Now unless we either add more folks to the election or we have three VERY strong candidates you are still effectively getting the same result.

Typpicly in my area of the US when thsee kind of weighted election systems are proposed the carry with it an enlarged voting area, Such as the whole county. Thus if your county currently has 10 districts in it you elect 10 people. If you give each voter 1 vote but they list them from 1-10 you have a very good chance that your local person will not get elected. In a Country or state that has lopsided population this is going to be very telling. My county has noticeably lopsided population. The majority of the districts are in the north and east and the fewer bigger districts are in the south and west. Population wise it would be VERY easy to get not a single representative from the hAlf of the county that is the south west. Thus the concern of the people that living in my area will get little to now representation.

Thus my original point.

If the OP has a suggestion to avoid this problem then I suggest that the OP should propose a specific system not a vague concept. Then the pros and one of said system can be discussed. Vs having to talk in the abstract. The OP on this was and is so vague that this whole topic is wide open for interpretation. If you look up the terms used you can not find ANY consistent definition. Because they are all interpreted differently depending on who is talking, where they are and what proposal is be push or argued for/against.

Thus it is perfectly valid to point out why the typical way these systems are suggested to be implemented is not a particularly good idea. If the OP didn’t want input from local cit then perhaps the phrase “Specifically looking for opinions of Americans or those who know America well.” Should have been avoided?
Or is this the case that someone wanted a specific result, did not phrase the original post in such a way as to ONLY get that result and now is unhappy that someone that disagrees posted?

Looking at the OP it basicly said, hey, what if we changed the way folks are elected in the us to some sort of system that is more likely to result in proportional representation and is different then what you have now, i was thinking of some sorted of weighted system that I won’t actually define but that is “better” at representing folks then the current one (better of course being in the opinion of the original poster) I am not going to use any terms that have definitive definitions nor suggest who/why this change occurred but I would really like yo hear from folks living in the US about this. Then he gets upset that the topic does not follow the path he was hoping for to the destination that he wanted.

Well am sorry but you need to be a little more specific about you POD or your desired outcome or whatever it is you truly want from your post. And when you are suggesting changing a system that has )relatively speaking) worked for a couple hundred years to one that odds are reduces the local representation in favor of a system may or may not more accurately represent the typical voting pattern of a larger area then you are probably going to get folks pointing out why some (probably most) folks in the effected area are not going yo be strong supporters of this change. Add in the request for info from folks in the US implying that the Original Poster is NOT from the US and you are probably going to get the posts phrased in such a way as to point out why this propose system is not a good fit or why the current system is or what is typically different about the US then most countries.

By the way a water down version of these kind of systems are often used. School districts and City/Towns often use an “at large” system where All the candidates for a representative position are elected out of a single pool. It is not a waited system and if there is 4 slots with 10 candidates then each person voting gets to vote for 4, but the result is very similar. This is done on either a local level were arguably everyone has similar issues or when the position is limited. So you see this at the township level and the school level. But both of thos cover MUCH smaller area typcsly 30 or so sq miles for townships and up to county sizes for the schools.

By the way. While it can be argued that this is not “current” politics because it was phrased in such a way that it specifically refers to 40+ years ago. The problem is that this exact conversation about districting, the electoral college and ”better” representation of different parties/ethnic groups or whatever IS very much current politics in the US. And if this is allowed by the rules (and I believe it arguably is) then perhaps the rules need to be re-examined before someone decides to phrase a current political topic in such a manor as to put it back 30 years ago. Something that is pretty easy to do consider how long some topics and some politicians have been around.
 

marktaha

Banned
I’m reminded of the time Nixon supported getting rid of the Electoral College, so maybe that attempt gets more momentum and succeeds. That could lead to future reform attempts down the line.
It should have been abolished decades ago.The US President should be elected like the French one-direct popular vote and a runoff if nobody gets over 50%. Congress,Mayors and Governors should be elected in the same way.
 
Let’s rephr this. You are proposing keeping the individual districts but some home to a rated vote…. How? I have ypic three people running for my local (we will use this level for this discussion) In order to use a rated system i would have to classify them as 1st or Second choice. Being as rating your third out of three choices is mathematically pointless. Now unless we either add more folks to the election or we have three VERY strong candidates you are still effectively getting the same result.

Typpicly in my area of the US when thsee kind of weighted election systems are proposed the carry with it an enlarged voting area, Such as the whole county. Thus if your county currently has 10 districts in it you elect 10 people. If you give each voter 1 vote but they list them from 1-10 you have a very good chance that your local person will not get elected. In a Country or state that has lopsided population this is going to be very telling. My county has noticeably lopsided population. The majority of the districts are in the north and east and the fewer bigger districts are in the south and west. Population wise it would be VERY easy to get not a single representative from the hAlf of the county that is the south west. Thus the concern of the people that living in my area will get little to now representation.

Thus my original point.

If the OP has a suggestion to avoid this problem then I suggest that the OP should propose a specific system not a vague concept. Then the pros and one of said system can be discussed. Vs having to talk in the abstract. The OP on this was and is so vague that this whole topic is wide open for interpretation. If you look up the terms used you can not find ANY consistent definition. Because they are all interpreted differently depending on who is talking, where they are and what proposal is be push or argued for/against.

Thus it is perfectly valid to point out why the typical way these systems are suggested to be implemented is not a particularly good idea. If the OP didn’t want input from local cit then perhaps the phrase “Specifically looking for opinions of Americans or those who know America well.” Should have been avoided?
Or is this the case that someone wanted a specific result, did not phrase the original post in such a way as to ONLY get that result and now is unhappy that someone that disagrees posted?

Looking at the OP it basicly said, hey, what if we changed the way folks are elected in the us to some sort of system that is more likely to result in proportional representation and is different then what you have now, i was thinking of some sorted of weighted system that I won’t actually define but that is “better” at representing folks then the current one (better of course being in the opinion of the original poster) I am not going to use any terms that have definitive definitions nor suggest who/why this change occurred but I would really like yo hear from folks living in the US about this. Then he gets upset that the topic does not follow the path he was hoping for to the destination that he wanted.

Well am sorry but you need to be a little more specific about you POD or your desired outcome or whatever it is you truly want from your post. And when you are suggesting changing a system that has )relatively speaking) worked for a couple hundred years to one that odds are reduces the local representation in favor of a system may or may not more accurately represent the typical voting pattern of a larger area then you are probably going to get folks pointing out why some (probably most) folks in the effected area are not going yo be strong supporters of this change. Add in the request for info from folks in the US implying that the Original Poster is NOT from the US and you are probably going to get the posts phrased in such a way as to point out why this propose system is not a good fit or why the current system is or what is typically different about the US then most countries.

By the way a water down version of these kind of systems are often used. School districts and City/Towns often use an “at large” system where All the candidates for a representative position are elected out of a single pool. It is not a waited system and if there is 4 slots with 10 candidates then each person voting gets to vote for 4, but the result is very similar. This is done on either a local level were arguably everyone has similar issues or when the position is limited. So you see this at the township level and the school level. But both of thos cover MUCH smaller area typcsly 30 or so sq miles for townships and up to county sizes for the schools.

By the way. While it can be argued that this is not “current” politics because it was phrased in such a way that it specifically refers to 40+ years ago. The problem is that this exact conversation about districting, the electoral college and ”better” representation of different parties/ethnic groups or whatever IS very much current politics in the US. And if this is allowed by the rules (and I believe it arguably is) then perhaps the rules need to be re-examined before someone decides to phrase a current political topic in such a manor as to put it back 30 years ago. Something that is pretty easy to do consider how long some topics and some politicians have been around.
Doug, your first line was "this fails to grasp the size of the average US state" which is wrong, presumptuous, and a personal attack. You do things like this in EVERY thread I've seen you in. You attempt to shut down arguments and debate in favour of your point or view. In the railroads thread, you even said that China and the USA werent comparable in size because they had different political systems. Your wall of text posts are tiresome, and I flat out dont care for your style of engagement (which is what I criticized), so this will be the last time I engage with you.
 
I have family in Ohio, so more than 90% of the time I've spent in the USA has been there; so many Presidents were born in Ohio! It's the second Virginia.

Anyway, this may just be because of familiarity; but I think Ohio would be a very interesting state to adopt this as you suggest. It's got a lot of diversity. The south feels very southern. The north feels very northern. Even the Northeast is notably more Northeastern than the West, which is notably more midwestern.

I could see it as a microcosm of American politics.

And apparently it was already in use in Cleveland, Toledo and Cincinnati!

What do you think?

I’m from Ohio, and it’s a lot like any state - the cities are blue, the suburbs and mid-sized cities are purple and everywhere else is blood red.

PR would be an interesting idea, though I don’t see any party in power ever allowing it unless they know the jig is up.

I also know that, at least for a while, we had a mixed system in Columbus; some city council members were elected to districts and some were “at-large.” It wasn’t quite a typical PR system but it was way better than this district bullshit.
 
Yeah I kinda felt the same way. I started this thread wondering if STV-PR could significantly improve the chances of the left and minorities in the USA.

Never have I so quickly received an answer which so thoroughly confirmed, "Yes it would, and that's why we dont have it".
It all comes down to the fact that you have to convince the people who have power to give up their power which is very hard to do. Doesn't matter what group they are or where they are from that is the most basic issue with all reforms.
 
I’m from Ohio, and it’s a lot like any state - the cities are blue, the suburbs and mid-sized cities are purple and everywhere else is blood red.

PR would be an interesting idea, though I don’t see any party in power ever allowing it unless they know the jig is up.

I also know that, at least for a while, we had a mixed system in Columbus; some city council members were elected to districts and some were “at-large.” It wasn’t quite a typical PR system but it was way better than this district bullshit.
Hmmm the MMP system? That is one way to avoid the "no one represents my district" argument (which is one that I dont hold to be particularly valid; studies have shown that an STV PR system isnt more likely to produce candidates from big cities; although a list system is.

Also, the first ever pro sports match I attended was Columbus Crew at The Ohio State Stadium. I recall Brian McBride being a big deal at the time.
 
Yeah I kinda felt the same way. I started this thread wondering if STV-PR could significantly improve the chances of the left and minorities in the USA.

Never have I so quickly received an answer which so thoroughly confirmed, "Yes it would, and that's why we dont have it".
Yeah, as @David T so well put it in their comment, we are talking about intractable differences in opinion about what a political system is supposed to do, not mere argument about the best solution for universally-recognised problems.

PR so directly undermines what are widely held to be fundamental values to the enfranchised (and white) class that a new consensus would have to be imposed, and I suspect that for it to become the universal norm in the US, even in the most conservative-dominated regions of the country, it would need to be done (or at least assisted) from without, ala Germany and Japan. The US in the 20th Century is unconquerable no matter how much of a pariah it becomes to the rest of the world, so long as its government remains effective enough to keep its place as the hegemon of the Americas. A collapse of the political order and following civil war would open the US up to invasion from 'The Free World', while also allowing the already-horrific Jim Crow to escelate in violence so much that racial supremacy becomes as discredited in the aftermath as Nazism was in postwar Germany. Most of the stable democracies in the world with PR systems have had to go through invasion or revolution, these had helped force the situation of starting from scratch.
 
Hmmm the MMP system? That is one way to avoid the "no one represents my district" argument (which is one that I dont hold to be particularly valid; studies have shown that an STV PR system isnt more likely to produce candidates from big cities; although a list system is.

Also, the first ever pro sports match I attended was Columbus Crew at The Ohio State Stadium. I recall Brian McBride being a big deal at the time.

People claim that big cities would run everything all the time, but look at any election in history and it always turns in weird places. I think 2000 turned in Palm Beach.

Also, yeah, McBride was a big deal here for a while, but he didn’t really help the Crew win much of anything. The Crew was pretty shitty to start out (and had no business playing in Ohio Stadium) but the atmosphere at Crew Stadium (which I refuse to call by any other name) is something pretty special now.
 
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