Prominent Monarchist faction in China during Warlord Era / Sino-Japanese War / Civil War

[Strategos' Risk]

I once heard of how a Chinese or perhaps Taiwanese writer wrote about how the average villager in China was beset by all manner of bandits during the civil war.

1. Bandit thugs working for the Nationalists
2. Bandit thugs working for the Communists
3. Bandit thugs working for the Japanese puppet regimes
4. Bandit thugs working for warlord cliques or generals
5. Bandit thugs who were just bandits, non-aligned

So it made me think of what other types of factions could have existed in the fractious period between 1911 and 1949. What if there was a monarchist faction?

Instead of the Qing, who would have been propped up by Japan anyway falling into 3), what if Yuan Shikai did better in the National Protection War and managed to hold on as a warlord with a twist, promising to preserve the Confucian system and please both Qing loyalists (the Manchu supposedly approved of his move) and Han reactionaries who want the Ming back, by at least having an empire and not a republic?

So by the time WWII happens, there are monarchist bandit thugs also extorting people.

Also lol his Wikipedia article actually contains a picture of Yuan dressed in some real damn post-Qing neo-imperial clothes in 1914, nice.

Alternatively you can come up with a different dynasty being declared.

I'm trying to crib as few ideas from Kaiserreich as possible so I didn't lok up what they did with the Ma's nor did I attempt to add an I-Kuan Tao faction.

 

[Slime_blob]

Instead of the Qing, who would have been propped up by Japan anyway falling into 3), what if Yuan Shikai did better in the National Protection War and managed to hold on as a warlord with a twist, promising to preserve the Confucian system and please both Qing loyalists (the Manchu supposedly approved of his move) and Han reactionaries who want the Ming back, by at least having an empire and not a republic?

Yuan Shikai pissed most of the army after going to become the emperor, most of his generals are angry after doing this and that is why it collapsed. The armed forces are the kingmakers

 

[A Piece of History]

The May 4th movement/New Culture movement signified a shift in Chinese political theory. The people of China wanted a modern, Western-style government that could protect the country from foreign influences. The Chinese are not going to want a new royal dynasty until that potential dynasty can offer them security and independence, with no strings attached and with republicanism in the air, that is going to be very hard to do.

what if Yuan Shikai did better in the National Protection War and managed to hold on as a warlord with a twist, promising to preserve the Confucian system and please both Qing loyalists (the Manchu supposedly approved of his move) and Han reactionaries who want the Ming back

One of the major changes the May 4th movement demanded was a repudiation of the Confucian system. To them, that system was what was weakening China from within. By 1919, the Han reactionaries would've been few and far between. Many of the military officers during the Warlord Era were former Qing loyalists, with at least two attempts to put Pu Yi back on the throne. They are not going to follow the drum of a illegitimate dynasty unless that dynasty involved putting Pu Yi back on the throne.

 

[Sarthak]

there were millions of monarchist guerillas in ww2 in China. They simply didn't have the political backing. Make them coalesce into a political faction rather than some guerillas only, and you will have it easily. IOTL, the Monarchist Party was approached by these guerillas, but the guerillas wanted a Han Emperor with constitutional monarchy (preferably the Duke of Confucius), but the Monarchist Party wanted absolute monarchy and the Qing Dynasty. That could be a suitable PoD

 

[Thon Taddeo]

there were millions of monarchist guerillas in ww2 in China.

Do you have a source for this?

 

[Strategos' Risk]

Yuan Shikai pissed most of the army after going to become the emperor, most of his generals are angry after doing this and that is why it collapsed. The armed forces are the kingmakers

He pissed off a lot of the commanders, yes, because he was engaging in a naked power grab. So in theory he would either have to work to assure them of their place, or alternatively as I say in the OP some other dynasty with more popular support rises instead.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empire_of_China_(1915–1916

the Hongxian Emperor was opposed by not only the revolutionaries, but far more importantly by his subordinate military commanders, who believed that Yuan's assumption of the monarchy would allow him to rule without depending on the support of the military.

So maybe he should've been a better politicker. And a better administrator- it sounds like he wasn't even paying his troops. So it's not that necessarily everyone against him hated monarchism, it's more like they hated him as the monarch.

One of the major changes the May 4th movement demanded was a repudiation of the Confucian system. To them, that system was what was weakening China from within. By 1919, the Han reactionaries would've been few and far between. Many of the military officers during the Warlord Era were former Qing loyalists, with at least two attempts to put Pu Yi back on the throne. They are not going to follow the drum of a illegitimate dynasty unless that dynasty involved putting Pu Yi back on the throne.

You're absolutely right. However:

1. The May 4th revolutionaries of the KMT were soundly defeated by Yuan in the OTL Second Revolution. They were less of a factor compared to Yuan's actual military.

2. I don't think most of the military men who ended up running the cliques were committed republicans like the revolutionaries. It's more likely that their rejection of Yuan was based on preserving their power, and alarm at how he was so greatly expanding his by betraying the republic they had sworn loyalty to. But if somehow he or someone better than him found a way to assuage the fears of those generals...

Do you have a source for this?

Yeah, I'd like to know, too.

This thread isn't talking about a superpower China that ends up under classical imperial system again, it's just talking about monarchism not being defeated until the end of WWII. For a read that might be helpful for either goal- monarchists winning, or simply surviving up to 1949, one can take a look at the late great John J. Reilly's "A New Dynasty in 1916?"

The Long View: A New Dynasty — With Both Hands

This is a fine essay of alternative history by John Reilly, regarding an early twentieth century China in which someone managed to cobble together enough Confucian orthodoxy to proclaim themselves Emperor, of a sort, sparing China Chairman Mao and the Cultural Revolution. In a fascinating aside, Jo

www.benespen.com

Key excerpt:

The deeper difficulty that a new dynasty would have faced would have been a crisis of legitimacy. Chinese dynasties made perfect sense in terms of Confucian ideology; they had been the only imaginable form of national government for upwards of two millennia. The Qing had indeed been overthrown in part because they were Manchurian foreigners. However, the movement against them had been informed, not simply by Han nationalism, but by a critique of the Confucian heritage itself.

Throughout Chinese history, successful brigands and ambitious generals had become acceptable as the founders of dynasties by signaling their intention to follow traditional precedents of government and morality. There was almost an established drill to go through, down to the wording of key proclamations. After a period of interdynastic chaos, even a personally horrible candidate who honored the forms could nevertheless get the support of the local gentry and magistrates. They did not have to like a would-be dynastic founder; they simply needed to be assured that government would again become predictable and comprehensible.

It was precisely this cultural consensus that reformers in China had spent the prior 50 years destroying. Though no democrat, Yuan Shikai still falls into this class. His modernized national army, and his use of it as the primary instrument of government, was as un-Confucian as the democratic assemblies favored by Sun Yatsen. There were plenty of tradition-minded people in China still in 1916, even among the literate elites. However, they were not for the most part the people who managed new enterprises or who understood modern administrative techniques. Yuan could not have created a dynasty on the traditional model without bringing the country back to 1800.

On the other hand, even if a traditional monarchy was not possible, it does not follow that no monarchy would have been possible. The 20th century has not lacked for monarchies that justified themselves by simultaneous appeals to tradition and the project of modernization. There was a gaggle of them in the Balkans between the First and Second World Wars, kings of shaky new states who make themselves dictators when parliamentary government stopped working. In practice, these regimes were not much different from the party dictatorships elsewhere in Europe.

The most successful example was not in Europe, but in the Middle East. There, the new Pahlavi Dynasty of Persia (which it taught the world to call "Iran") attempted a program of national modernization comparable to, but milder than, the reconstruction of Turkey undertaken by Kemal Ataturk and his successors. To be a Pahlavi Shah was not quite the same thing as being a Shah in prior Persian history had been. The Pahlavi Shahs had new bases of social support and a novel relationship with the outside world. Still, some of the ancient terminology of government lent a bit of credibility to the letterheads of the new regime. We should remember that it actually lasted quite a long time for a government of ruthless modernizers, until the late 1970s. It is conceivable that a competent candidate could have established an analogous government in China, and so might have become "emperor" in a similarly qualified sense.

 

[Sarthak]

Do you have a source for this?

The History of That Great and Renowned Monarchy of China. Wherein All the Particular Provinces Are Accurately Described: As Also the Dispositions, Manners, Learning, Lawes, Militia, Government by Alvaro Semedo ​

 

[varyar]

The History of That Great and Renowned Monarchy of China. Wherein All the Particular Provinces Are Accurately Described: As Also the Dispositions, Manners, Learning, Lawes, Militia, Government by Alvaro Semedo ​

What does a 17th century book have to do with the question at hand?

 

[Sarthak]

What does a 17th century book have to do with the question at hand?

the Amazon Edition of 2010 has a few chapters written from the translator and editor that discusses monarchism in China and the Sinosphere in general, where the remnants of monarchism in Chinese society is mentioned.

 

[Strategos' Risk]

the Amazon Edition of 2010 has a few chapters written from the translator and editor that discusses monarchism in China and the Sinosphere in general, where the remnants of monarchism in Chinese society is mentioned.

Could you screenshot any of it? I think I did find the monarchist party you're talking about, which was for Qing restoration and anti-Yuan Shikai:

Royalist Party - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

While not outright monarchists, I did come across some interesting bandit groups on Wikipedia that were actually active in the early Beiyang Republic era. The Yellow Sand Society were basically one of those esoteric secret societies in China, united around a charismatic messianic leader who posed as a Ming claimant:

The Yellow Sand Society launches a second Boxer Rebellion

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_Sand_Society Actually, this sort of happened historically: Following the collapse of the Qing Empire, the Yellow Way Society opposed the new Republican government. This was unusual, for most secret societies chose to cooperate with the new regime until the...

www.alternatehistory.com

It reads so crazy that I'm still not sure it isn't a Wiki-hoax. But there were tons of those mystic brotherhoods and Triads throughout Chinese history, it mentions them being allied to the Red Spear Society and the Heavenly Gate Society, who sound like real things, I guess. The article claims that they took over Cheng'an County in 1927 and ran it for several months, which is something that could have happened, maybe, and gives them an illustrious history fighting both the KMT and the CPC, not fully suppressed until like 1960. It has footnotes so it's totally not historical fanfiction by a bored troll editor!

Anyway, if something like the Yellow Sand Society got big and well-organized enough to be the size of a minor military clique, they would qualify as something different from the five bandit types I mentioned in the OP. They would certainly be a weird brand of non-KMT revolutionary.

On the flip side, the slightly less fake-sounding Bai Lang Rebellion, a bandit army led by a man with a name that literally sounds like white wolf, fought against Yuan Shikai and the Sufi warriors of the Ma clan while being allied to the KMT and secret societies like the Gelaohui hatchet men and the Boxers-like swaggering Big Swords Society and the aforementioned Royalist Party despite being very anti-Manchu and allied with anti-Manchu forces. The infobox for them is crazy and dubiously-sourced imo.

Bai Lang Rebellion - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Which one of you guys is writing these articles?

 

[A Piece of History]

1. The May 4th revolutionaries of the KMT were soundly defeated by Yuan in the OTL Second Revolution. They were less of a factor compared to Yuan's actual military.

The KMT's Second Revolution was in 1914. The May 4th Movement was in 1919 and by then, the public had been incensed by the failure to maintain China's sovereignty in the Treaty of Versailles. Like I said, a dynasty has to prove it can protect China's independence from outsiders. Yuan failed that test when his attempt to make his own dynasty resulted in China becoming more fractured and open to foreigners, such as the Japanese presence in Shandong. By 1919, China was coming apart at the seams because of Yuan, even though he had died in 1916.

 

[Strategos' Risk]

Ah my bad, I had confused the Xinhai Revolution with the May 4th Movement. No matter. We can simply butterfly its existence. After all, this simply means that any prospective competent new dynasty movement needs to have manifested prior to it. Maybe Yuan never makes his monarchial grab and instead is just a crappy president and the Beiyang Republic ends up discrediting republicanism all by itself, causing local elites and conservative forces to get all nostalgic about the old system within a few years, and a separate pretender attempts to found a new Han dynasty. A Xin Han if you will.

As part of Yuan shelving his monarchist ambitions for whatever reason (maybe he realizes how old and frail he is and doesn't try biting off more than he could chew), he doesn't give into the Twenty-One Demands- the John J. Reilly article claims he did so in a bid to get Japan to support his eventual dynastic attempt, which they deigned to. By remaining steadfast, this butterflies away one of the causes for the May 4th Movement.

 

[Strategos' Risk]

Wikipedia keeps bringing out the nuggets of dubiously-sourced history. This whole article contains fodder for all sorts of timelines in different countries.

Self-proclaimed monarchy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Since then, there have been repeated attempts by individuals to declare themselves Chinese emperor or empress. In the 1920s and 1930s, there were several peasant rebels who declared themselves members of House of Zhu and tried to restore the Ming dynasty, such as the self-proclaimed emperors "Chu the Ninth" (1919–1922, backed by the Yellow Way Society), "Wang the Sixth" (1924),[9] and Chu Hung-teng (1925, backed by the Heavenly Gate Society).[10] In course of the Spirit Soldier rebellions (1920–1926), a former farm worker and rebel leader named Yuan declared himself the "Jade Emperor".[11] Following the Chinese Civil War, there have been hundreds of monarchist pretenders who oppose the Chinese Communist Party and often gathered small groups of supporters. Notable self-proclaimed monarchs include: Li Zhu, declared a new dynasty in 1954;[12] Song Yiufang, leader of the Nine Palaces Way (crowned by his followers after sneaking into the Forbidden City in 1961);[12] Yang Xuehua, empress of the Heavenly Palace Sect (arrested in 1976 and executed after allegedly planning a rebellion); Chao Yuhua, empress of the "Great Sage Dynasty" (crowned in 1988 in a factory);[13] Tu Nanting, ex-soldier and emperor (believed in his emperorship after reading several books on prophecies, the arcane, and morals);[14]Yang Zhaogong who attempted to establish a new dynasty with alleged backing of CCCPC members.[15] In general, these self-proclaimed monarchs were not very successful and quickly arrested by security forces.[15] However, one self-proclaimed emperor, Li Guangchang, organized a large sect of supporters and factually governed a small territory in Cangnan County, called the "Zishen Nation", from 1981 to 1986 in de facto independence from China. He was eventually arrested, reportedly after attempting to organize a wider rebellion.[12]

Yeah no idea if any of these local small-time rebellions were real, but they sure have cool names. Here's an entire article, which is also probably not a Wiki hoax!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirit_Soldier_rebellions_(1920–1926)

The Spirit Soldiers were likened to the Boxers (pictured) due to their reliance on close quarters combat and belief in magic to overcome better armed opponents.[3]

A Jesuit missionary on an Asahi motorcycle in China in 1939. The Spirit Soldiers were hostile toward Western-influenced modernization and Christianity.[3][36]

Pictures of real world things but not the actual thing that the article is about, sounds legit, sure, okay.

 

[Strategos' Risk]

Okay I'm just finding out about more of these failed 20th century monarchist new dynasty rebellions from YouTube videos now, and it's very upsetting to me

Heavenly Kingdom of the Great Mingshun - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

They've actually got pictures of the ringleaders, which seems more real than many of the other ones I've posted earlier. But this is still throwing my sense of fancy for me. Co-founded by a former Taiping general? (But not related to the Black Flag Army) Advocating for a "constitutional monarchy and a democratic republic"? One of the other co-founders "had an interest in designing airships"? None of the links in the references even work? It's literally named with both the characters for the Ming dynasty and the failed Shun dynasty (same 順)? How is this real and yet we've not talked about it on this forum before.

Someone need to investigate all of these Wikipedia articles on failed Chinese rebellions and either purge them for historical hoaxery or write a damn book compiling them into one handy reference, already. And make some movies about them.

 

[ArtosStark]

And make some movies about them.

Movies showing Monarchist rebellions in China when your second largest (if not largest) market is Communist China? History and Art don’t buy no Beverly Hills mansion!

 

[Strategos' Risk]

Movies showing Monarchist rebellions in China when your second largest (if not largest) market is Communist China? History and Art don’t buy no Beverly Hills mansion!

They were anti-Qing rebellions so that could be more acceptable. Jet Li was already in one with Andy Lau and Takeshi Kaneshiro. It didn't even depict the Taiping in a positive light.