Problems with Fatherland

I don't necessarily agree, but after reading lots of Nazi victory threads, that is the consensus here.

Jet engines, missiles, synthetic fuel... they were clever in some ways.

Basically I dont want to derive a timeline that is a nazi-wank... well maybe a mini-wank.
 
To me the alternate history is the only thing I am interested in salvaging, the actual story is worthless.

Quite the reverse of the truth IMO. The AH of Fatherland is a handwave at best, but the story is a tight and effective thriller with an original plot and Robert Harris writes well. If you didn't enjoy it as a thriller, then you may as well just put it back on the shelf and forget about it.

I enjoyed "Fatherland" (the book, I mean, the movie was just silly) but one thing about it kind of bothered me: the suppression and official denial of the Holocaust. I don't believe a victorious Third Reich would have denied the Holocaust, because they didn't think they did anything wrong. Instead, I think this mass murder would have been glorified and celebrated. Schoolchildren would have gone on field trips to see the death camps and crematoria, now preserved as memorials, the way we preserve historic battlefields. Statues would have been raised to honor the genocidaires, and their victims would have been despised as dangerous, disease-ridden enemies of the Reich.

Probably not IMO. The Euthanasia programme for example ended as it was unpopular. There's also the simple fact that murder was actually illegal in the Third Reich and so the holocaust was illegal even under their laws (I know Fuhrerprinzip, but that was extralegal). The fact that there were no written orders from Hitler, it was all carried out in secret and attempts were made at a cover up in OTL suggest no celebration of Jewish mass murder would have occured IMO. OTOH, I have read that there were Nazi plans for a museum about the Jews in Prague, although whether it would have covered their fate, who knows.
 
Quite the reverse of the truth IMO. The AH of Fatherland is a handwave at best, but the story is a tight and effective thriller with an original plot and Robert Harris writes well. If you didn't enjoy it as a thriller, then you may as well just put it back on the shelf and forget about it.

I find the plot to be a cliched paint by numbers thriller, the plot written as it does conflicts with history, and by simply changing the names and locations of various things could easily be set pretty much anywhere. I am interested only in what ideas can be stolen from it for a decent A-H, but getting less interested in that aspect as time goes on!

Probably not IMO. The Euthanasia programme for example ended as it was unpopular.

Did it?

There's also the simple fact that murder was actually illegal in the Third Reich and so the holocaust was illegal even under their laws (I know Fuhrerprinzip, but that was extralegal). The fact that there were no written orders from Hitler, it was all carried out in secret and attempts were made at a cover up in OTL suggest no celebration of Jewish mass murder would have occured IMO.

I dont think the legality or illegality of the holocaust has any bearing on anything. For all intents and purposes the holocaust was legal. For a lot of what the Nazis did there were no written orders, attempts were only made to cover it up because Germany began to realise the possibility of defeat. The idea that in the 60's, after a victorious Germany and the overall success of nazi rule that the regime would suddenly be brought down, or even fear being brought down by some random idiot revealing that the Jews were gassed is totally ASB and smacks of a syrupy, sentimental, hollywood style white wash.

The German people would have had varied reactions of indifference, support and denial. Very few people would have actually been upset about it.
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I find the plot to be a cliched paint by numbers thriller, the plot written as it does conflicts with history, and by simply changing the names and locations of various things could easily be set pretty much anywhere. I am interested only in what ideas can be stolen from it for a decent A-H, but getting less interested in that aspect as time goes on!
Well personal opinions of books vary, but given that is about a guy discovering the holocaust I'm not sure how it could be set anywhere. It couldn't be set in modern Britain for example.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T4_euthanasia Particularly the section on opposition.
I dont think the legality or illegality of the holocaust has any bearing on anything. For all intents and purposes the holocaust was legal. For a lot of what the Nazis did there were no written orders, attempts were only made to cover it up because Germany began to realise the possibility of defeat. The idea that in the 60's, after a victorious Germany and the overall success of nazi rule that the regime would suddenly be brought down, or even fear being brought down by some random idiot revealing that the Jews were gassed is totally ASB and smacks of a syrupy, sentimental, hollywood style white wash.

The German people would have had varied reactions of indifference, support and denial. Very few people would have actually been upset about it.
The Nazis crimes were committed under the extralegal 'fuhrerprinzip' as I said. I find it unlikely that those crimes would later be 'celebrated'. It was industrial scale mass-murder. Even putting the illegality aside, it would be a propaganda own goal of massive proportions to publicise it.

I agree the regime would not be brought down but that isn't what happens in the book, where the implied consequence is that the proof will set back 'detente' with the USA (and it's not even clear that the information gets out in the end).
 
Not necessarily. If the Nazis got the bomb before the Americans, then the Allies would have no recourse. The Allies would still have the upper-hand in conventional battle, but at some point would be bombed into submission, especially if the entire British government was wiped out. Maybe we could see a timeline in which the Nazis use nukes to take out London, Moscow, and some of the American east coast cities, but the Allied armies beat the Germans anyway just like OTL. Soon the entire world descends into Anarchy. :eek:

The British would respond with weaponised anthrax, which is substantially nastier for the Germans in many ways than nuclear weapons are. For example, all Germans cities, and a substantial tear-drop shaped area downwind would be uninhabitable to this day.
 
Suppose the US still has its A-bombs as in OTL. They might opt for a conventional invasion of Japan and use the Big Ones on Germany.
 
Well personal opinions of books vary, but given that is about a guy discovering the holocaust I'm not sure how it could be set anywhere. It couldn't be set in modern Britain for example.

It could be set in any country that has done something its people would be disgusted by, which is why it doesn't work with a future nazi germany. It's just writing by numbers, stock characters, stock responses to them, stock characterisation, stock behaviour from the bad guys.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T4_euthanasia Particularly the section on opposition.

Thanks.

The Nazis crimes were committed under the extralegal 'fuhrerprinzip' as I said. I find it unlikely that those crimes would later be 'celebrated'. It was industrial scale mass-murder. Even putting the illegality aside, it would be a propaganda own goal of massive proportions to publicise it.

Maybe, but I really think you may be making too much out of it. The average German in the street hated Jews, many of the well to do hated Jews. Not all, but anti-semitism was very widespread. Otherwise everyone would have dismissed Hitler as the deluded prat he was.

They all knew that the Jews were being sent to the east, logic demands they must have known that the Jews were suffering and dying, sure they didn't know about the gas chambers, but they knew jews were dying and they didn't care.

I don't think it is unrealistic for their to have been some day put aside to celebrate the removal of the Jews, possibly an aniversary of when western and central europe was formally declared Judenfrei.

I think it is possibly pushing it to say that there would be tours of death camps by school kids and publications of the details of the gas chambers.

I agree the regime would not be brought down but that isn't what happens in the book, where the implied consequence is that the proof will set back 'detente' with the USA (and it's not even clear that the information gets out in the end).

I can't check right now, but I remember there is a pretty strong implication that this information comes to light and that it eventually brings down the regime or great social changes. I'll check tommorrow though.
 
At the moment I am trying to consider the possibilities of a Nazi Victory in WW2, cliched I know but every needs a hobby.

I was considering borrowing a few ideas from the Fatherland Novel, which despite it's terrible plot, and a couple of glaring historial inaccuracies does not seem entirely without merit.

In that version of history the Nazis are still fighting strong by 1946, they have developed the nuclear bomb, and they detonate a 'V-3' missile above New York to confirm that they have the delivery system to use it. Then they offer peace, America unsurprisingly accepts, and a cold war ensures.

My problem with this is, the V1 has a range of 150 miles, the V2 has a range of 200, yet the V-3 apparently can cross the atlantic.

Unless of course it was launched from a sub-marine, which the Nazis were working on, but the book makes no mention of it.

But anyway, can anyone think of better ways to end a victorious nuclear nazi (or nazi draw) WW2.

Perhaps the Nazi's simply nuke london (or close to london) to show they mean business?


The only way for a Nazi victory is for either Britain to sue for peace in 1940 and Hitler to accept or the acceptance of Stalin's peace proposal in December 1941. The Nazis cannot win of their own accord, not with the economic situation as of 1939 and not with Western and Soviet attitudes to the regime.
 
The only way for a Nazi victory is for either Britain to sue for peace in 1940 and Hitler to accept or the acceptance of Stalin's peace proposal in December 1941. The Nazis cannot win of their own accord, not with the economic situation as of 1939 and not with Western and Soviet attitudes to the regime.

I dont think it requires much tweaking for Germany to take Russia out of the war relatively early on, what I mean by that is that it can destroy most of Russia's ability to fight, and maybe force the Russian government to surrender. Obviously Russian resistance in occupied territories will last potentially for decades.

Even with a Russian defeat I don't see Churchill suing for peace, so something has to be tweaked there.
 
I dont think it requires much tweaking for Germany to take Russia out of the war relatively early on, what I mean by that is that it can destroy most of Russia's ability to fight, and maybe force the Russian government to surrender. Obviously Russian resistance in occupied territories will last potentially for decades.

Even with a Russian defeat I don't see Churchill suing for peace, so something has to be tweaked there.

All it would have taken would have been a "yes" to Stalin's request for peace. Eventually Churchill would have had to stop fighting when all potential allies were exhausted, especially if the Russian defeat convinces Hitler not to declare war on the US. Without Uncle Sam's dollars and with the US involved in Japan, you've an Athenian-Spartan standoff worthy of their war. Not exactly sure what'd happen or how long the Brits could hold out, or even if Churchill would still be PM, or what would happen with Tube Alloys.
 
All it would have taken would have been a "yes" to Stalin's request for peace. Eventually Churchill would have had to stop fighting when all potential allies were exhausted, especially if the Russian defeat convinces Hitler not to declare war on the US. Without Uncle Sam's dollars and with the US involved in Japan, you've an Athenian-Spartan standoff worthy of their war. Not exactly sure what'd happen or how long the Brits could hold out, or even if Churchill would still be PM, or what would happen with Tube Alloys.

It's an interesting outcome, but not the one I want if you get my drift.
 
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