Pro Aris et Pro Focis (P&S: New York City)

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: After 1900' started by GAB-1955, Jan 20, 2012.

  1. JN1 Who Patrick Harvie wishes he was

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    A more apt comparison might be to take the map, soak it in petrol (if you can afford it) and set fire to it. ;)
     
  2. Matt Wiser Well-Known Member

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    Try going to this site: http://www.nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap You can plot multiple GZs, use variable yields, historical or current weapons, or you can add your own. I did NYC with an SS-18 with 10x 550 KT warheads at the following GZs: one warhead each at JFK Airport, La Guardia Airport, Brooklyn Navy Yard, the WTC complex, Times Square, Staten Island, Teterboro Airport, Newark Liberty Airport, Perth Amboy (oil refinery), Linden (oil refinery). A follow-on strike via SLBMs, either via SS-N-18 or SS-N-20 is possible later on, but the city's still slag.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2012
  3. GAB-1955 Member

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    I saw the original target maps in the 1980s. Never mind!
     
  4. Lord Grattan consigned to OTL

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    I was just playing w/the NUKEMAP!
     
  5. NoOneFamous Well-Known Member

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    Are you referring to the greatest college football coach of all time, the late great Joe Paterno?
     
  6. ivfl Well-Known Member

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    Ok i understand JFK,Laguardia and the Navy Yard but what is so important in military terms about the former WTC?Sure its iconic and many firms had offices there but i don't see some clear military importance.Plus as far as i know the Navy Yard is close to Lower Manhattan a sizeable warhead detonating there would largely devastate Manhattan as well.I would imagine soviet strategy for a place like New York would be take out main threats airports and ports and what is left leave it to bombers.While we don't know what role bombers had probably they where left with the moping up whatever is left of relative importance nuke it.
     
  7. TheKinkster Banned

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    Took the liberty of fixing that for you. Though in this timeline, those events haven't happened yet, one can hope that here he gets caught at the edge of a firestorm or something.
     
  8. modelcitizen note2self, no ranting ninjas

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    I think WTC was the hq for Port Authority/Port Authority Police. I'm not sure how significant that could be...
     
  9. modelcitizen note2self, no ranting ninjas

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    One thing I do sometimes if I have difficulty reading a text is copying, pasting, and having at it with the enter-button at each period, etc. It's an extra minute to do and is arguably a pain if you're not inclined, but, it might work/help.


    For example,

    "I guess i should be flattered by someone taking inspiration from me.

    Sorry if some people have trouble reading through what i write.I usually had the same problem in high school.:D

    I also read the Johnston archive take on what a nuclear war would have been in the late '80s.In all honesty 1987-88 would probably have been the worst possible period for a nuclear war at least for the US.

    That was the time the number of available soviet warheads which could conceivably have reached North America peaked.

    The soviets where at the time introducing new subs in service with better capabilities than what came before.Also 1987 was the year the Tu-160 entered service with the air force the fastest known bomber on the planet.

    The USSR was seriously trying to reduce its dependency on ICBMs and increasing the importance of bombers and subs but then the Wall fell and the rest is history.

    One last detail after 1988 with the INF treaty entering into full force the number of warheads the soviets had to target China and Western Europe decreased so their strategy had to be changed accordingly.

    So the worst year for a nuke fest would be 1988 since they peaked around that time with their capabilities."
     
  10. modelcitizen note2self, no ranting ninjas

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    Poor Islanders. Man...

    fwiw, I bet you meant February
     
  11. GAB-1955 Member

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    The real target would be the Coast Guard/Army station on Governor's Island, just south of Manhattan. But Wall Street and the financial district would be a great symbolic target of a Communist planner.
     
  12. GAB-1955 Member

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    Sep 9, 2005
    Not I. State College is west of where Hadleyburg would be. Hadleyburg will have to worry about the Altoona burst in the distance.

    Hadleyburg used to be a prominent mining town, until a certain scandal in the late 1890s when its reputation for incorruptibility went south, as documented by popular historian Samuel Clemens.

    There are salt mines throughout New York and Pennsylvania. Not all of them were economical to operate. The Hadleyburg mine was closed in the 1950s.
     
  13. ivfl Well-Known Member

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    To be honest it seems like overkill.Looking at a map Governor's Island is pretty close to the Brooklyn port facilities especially the former Navy Yard.Nuking that would largely devastate the island and the Coast Guard presence there.If you have 2 targets which happen to be very close there is no point in individual strikes for each one.Soviet warheads are not unlimited in supply.My opinion would be 2 strikes for each main airport JFK,Laguardia and Newark and another 2-3 strikes for the various port facilities in Brooklyn,and Newark.With this Brooklyn,Queens,Manhattan would be largely devastated,add to this Jersey City and Newark plus smaller towns.Only Staten Island and the Bronx escape serious damage although fires would certainly spread.Whatever is left like refineries can be taken out by bombers.Overall at most 9 strikes on the New York metro area maybe a couple of strikes from subs or aircraft in the hours maybe days after the initial hits.
     
  14. GAB-1955 Member

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    Part 18: Hello Lampost, What'cha Knowin'

    Friday, 17 February 1984
    59th Street Bridge, between Manhattan and Queens

    0645 hours

    "Sir, C company all present or accounted for," First Sergeant Stone said.

    "Post!"

    The officers marched in front of the company, now grown to 45 men. Several veterans had joined in the last couple of days, including five former Marines. Their uniforms were variegated, but their purpose was the same as the State troops and their Federalized advisers.

    "At ease."

    "Men, our goal is to keep things as stable as they can be while the City and State activate emergency plans."

    "Finally get off their asses," a sergeant muttered.

    "Yep, Sergeant Martinez, finally get off their asses. This means right now that if anyone gives us trouble, we're on top of them. We want to show them that messing with a State Guard means you go back to the end of the line with a headache. Company, ATTENTION!

    "Fix bayonets."

    The Marines were used to doing this as part of their drill, but the Army manual merely says to fix them in a military manner. They all sort of followed the Marines.

    "You may wonder why we're using bayonets," the Lieutenant said. "As far as I'm concerned, there is only one purpose for the bayonet - to convince the enemy there is a crazy bastard on the battlefield and it ain't him, so get out of the way."

    More than polite chuckles.

    "Let's make sure the good burghers get the point without getting the point. First Sergeant! Take charge of the company and move them to guard mount."
    0730 hours

    Alternate side of the street parking had finally been suspended. So had most of the normal traffic rules. All but one the westbound lanes of the bridge were filled with cars leaving Long Island. They were full of people, clothing, and in many cases, tents and camping gear. Dogs barked. Children cried. Men cursed at each other in English, Yiddish, Italian, Spanish, and many of the other myriad tongues of the Apple.

    The Lieutenant stood at the west end side of the bridge. His First Sergeant was on the east side. (They'd walked; it was easier in traffic). The men of C Company patrolled the lanes of traffic, quelling minor disputes before they metastasized into riots. They helped push cars with minor problems. They kept one westbound lane open for police and fire vehicles and tow trucks. The towing companies were making a fortune that day. All the while, the cold wind whistled through the metal grating of the bridge, chilling each man in the wan winter light.

    The saddest part, the Lieutenant thought, were the pedestrians. Families carrying their worldly goods trudged westward, small children trying to keep up with the press of people. New York traffic cops kept them going.

    Once the Lieutenant found someone trying to pick the pockets of a Puerto Rican father with three small children. Two of his men cut the man out of line and held him at the point of the bayonet until the police hauled him away. The crowds gave the State Guards a cheer.

    The Lieutenant walked by one car. There were two heavyset Italian men in it, and four empty seats. He rapped at the window. The driver pulled it down. "Yes, Lieutenant?"

    "See that family over there? The dad and the three kids?"

    "Yeah, what about them?"

    "Do me a favor. Can you give them a ride over the bridge?"

    "Uh, I..."

    "It's cold and they're kids."

    "We don't want no Spics in here," the passenger said.

    "What a shame," the Lieutenant said. "In that case, I'll just have to confiscate your car. Get out, please."

    "Hey, buddy, you don't know who you're messing with."

    "Yes, I do. You're men of honor."

    The two raised an eyebrow.

    "You work over at the bookie joint on Richmond Hill. You're Gambinos."

    "Ain't saying," the driver said.

    "Look, I know you all have important business to do for your boss. But on a day like today, giving a ride to refugees going westbound is going to be smart cover. You won't be harassed."

    "Yeah? We'll let them in then. I thought you were just being an asshole, Lieutenant."

    "I have been called that one or two times," the Lieutenant said, "but I think your underboss and I may have a thing or two to discuss with each other. Here's my numbers. Call tonight."

    The passenger opened the door and gestured for the father and kids to climb in. "We'll give you a ride to near the bus terminal," he said. The crowd cheered.

    The car, now full, headed westbound. The Lieutenant thought about what the Colonel would say if he knew.

    He hoped he would never need to know.
     
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  15. NoOneFamous Well-Known Member

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    Paterno did nothing wrong. In 1998 State College PD had a taped confession from Sandusky and the DA declined to prosecute - but it's Paterno's fault. Prior to 2002 two state grand juries heard evidence, and declined to do anything - but it's Paterno's fault.

    In 2002 a member of his staff witnessed a rape. Did this "man" go to the police? Did he beat the crap out of Sandusky and rescue the kid? Nope, he went to Daddy. Daddy told him to go to Paterno. Paterno heard an edited version (McQueary himself has stated that Joe was not told everything). Paterno went to his supervisor and the head of Penn State Police. Paterno was not a cop nor was he a trained investigator. By that time, Sandusky was no longer a member of his staff.

    Just what the hell should he have done?
     
  16. JN1 Who Patrick Harvie wishes he was

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    If troops lack proper public order equipment bayonets are pretty effective. Early on in the Somalia intervention US Marines broke up a riot by advancing on the mob with fixed bayonets. When faced with a line of sharpened steel the mob rapidly decided that it had urgent appointments elsewhere and the marines did not actually have to use them.

    In general soldiers often don't actually have to use their bayonets. Just the sight of a couple of hundred screaming men with sharpened blades on their rifles generally convinces an enemy that he really should be somewhere else.
     
  17. Archangel Battery-powered Bureaucrat

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    I'm curious about the Lieutenant's intentions.

    Keep it up, GAB!:)
     
  18. Lord Grattan consigned to OTL

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    Your idea of "fixing" is trollish and inappropriate.
     
  19. TheKinkster Banned

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    Sorry, I don't take very well to people who choose to idolize those who knew about child molestation and didn't take it to the police.
     
  20. GAB-1955 Member

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    Sep 9, 2005
    I would rather the matter be dropped. As an old Terp, I have never had love for PSU.
     
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