Priority for the Graf Zeppelins
- Thread starter JAG88
- Start date
It'll be exactly where it was in OTL, but with a CAG of four bi-planes.
Why, with Carriers working up would the Admiralty disperse the Carriers in U boat hunting actions? Or keep them concentrated for fleet actions?
sharlin
Banned
The RN would do it because you forget the primary thing about axiswanks. The Germans will operate in a airtight bubble where no one else in the world reacts to what they do or what they develop and blithly continues reacting in exactly the OTL fashion simply 'because.' Either that or the go full retard and think that a Mark I tank will be the answer for the suddenly developed Tiger II's the Germans have made in 1936 whilst at Sea the Admiratly is struck by the idea of BBQ's in the magazine chambers of their capital ships as a way of improving crew morale. The BBQ is of course an open fire which crew can throw drums of oil onto.
Basically people forget that in naval terminoligy, if someone who was a threat started doing something the RN would work on at least looking at a counter. For the RN (almost) every action (abroad) did cause an equal and opposite reaction in Whitehall.
Re carrier disposition I doubt the RN would send its carriers out of there was a carrier threat, experiments with grouping the Couragious, Glorious and Furious together opened Admirals eyes to the potential for operating carriers together for mutual protection and increasing the striking power of any attack they launch through bringing more aicraft together.
Basically people forget that in naval terminoligy, if someone who was a threat started doing something the RN would work on at least looking at a counter. For the RN (almost) every action (abroad) did cause an equal and opposite reaction in Whitehall.
Re carrier disposition I doubt the RN would send its carriers out of there was a carrier threat, experiments with grouping the Couragious, Glorious and Furious together opened Admirals eyes to the potential for operating carriers together for mutual protection and increasing the striking power of any attack they launch through bringing more aicraft together.
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There are multiple points of departure at play here and they don't necessarily follow:
1.) Carriers get higher priority, being laid down 8 months and ~ 24 months prior to the historical vessels.
Feasible, but it would require a PoD prior to 1936 due to the necessary changes in mindset. Getting GZ laid down earlier is quite possible; the second ship will need quite the change.
2.) A vessel is converted for a quick and cheap training deck
Possible, but adds extra expense and time. This would need the aforementioned change in doctrine well before 1936.
3.) Goering dies in an aircraft accident.
A completely separate point of departure with significant consequences outside of a carrier force of limited utility.
4.) The Luftwaffe recommends a significant change to light AA armament before there is any operational basis for said knowledge from operations in Spain and including guns that are only just entering production.
This is a further step onwards from simply deciding to give greater priority to the carriers.
5.) The Fi-167 is given greater priority due to the Ju-87C being dropped after catapult trials.
Possible, but it would add additional time to development and training of the carrier air wing.
6.) The 15cm secondary battery is removed.
This would presumably occur during the construction process, which would possibly extend the time taken for construction.
Most of these developments are technical, but the major issue is killing off Goering in an aircraft crash. That is a PoD worthy of its own exploration.
As a result of the combined developments, the KM has 2 operational carriers in 1940 and the RN is unchanged. There was sufficient capacity to lay down at least two extra fleet carriers in the period; the slips and money are there to lay down at least another two ships; in 1937, four battleships and four carriers were laid down.
There is at least one another slip at Harland and Wolff (later used for HMS Unicorn), and one at John Brown when the Queen Elizabeth is launched in 1938. The RN Dockyards at Portsmouth and Devonport can handle trade protection carriers, as the latter did historically.
An extra German carrier would get a reaction. Not a panicked one, nor a major one, but a slight change of the naval construction programme associated with rearmament which would result in a slightly different looking fleet in 1940/41.
With no change to German construction, Illustrious, Victorious, Indomitable, Formidable, KGV, POW, DOY, Anson, Howe were all laid down in 1937.
With an additional carrier, the Implacables would probably go down a bit earlier on the aforementioned slips, the carriers would be built slightly quicker and the trade protection carrier would also get a bit more priority.
1.) Carriers get higher priority, being laid down 8 months and ~ 24 months prior to the historical vessels.
Feasible, but it would require a PoD prior to 1936 due to the necessary changes in mindset. Getting GZ laid down earlier is quite possible; the second ship will need quite the change.
2.) A vessel is converted for a quick and cheap training deck
Possible, but adds extra expense and time. This would need the aforementioned change in doctrine well before 1936.
3.) Goering dies in an aircraft accident.
A completely separate point of departure with significant consequences outside of a carrier force of limited utility.
4.) The Luftwaffe recommends a significant change to light AA armament before there is any operational basis for said knowledge from operations in Spain and including guns that are only just entering production.
This is a further step onwards from simply deciding to give greater priority to the carriers.
5.) The Fi-167 is given greater priority due to the Ju-87C being dropped after catapult trials.
Possible, but it would add additional time to development and training of the carrier air wing.
6.) The 15cm secondary battery is removed.
This would presumably occur during the construction process, which would possibly extend the time taken for construction.
Most of these developments are technical, but the major issue is killing off Goering in an aircraft crash. That is a PoD worthy of its own exploration.
As a result of the combined developments, the KM has 2 operational carriers in 1940 and the RN is unchanged. There was sufficient capacity to lay down at least two extra fleet carriers in the period; the slips and money are there to lay down at least another two ships; in 1937, four battleships and four carriers were laid down.
There is at least one another slip at Harland and Wolff (later used for HMS Unicorn), and one at John Brown when the Queen Elizabeth is launched in 1938. The RN Dockyards at Portsmouth and Devonport can handle trade protection carriers, as the latter did historically.
An extra German carrier would get a reaction. Not a panicked one, nor a major one, but a slight change of the naval construction programme associated with rearmament which would result in a slightly different looking fleet in 1940/41.
With no change to German construction, Illustrious, Victorious, Indomitable, Formidable, KGV, POW, DOY, Anson, Howe were all laid down in 1937.
With an additional carrier, the Implacables would probably go down a bit earlier on the aforementioned slips, the carriers would be built slightly quicker and the trade protection carrier would also get a bit more priority.
The scenario is technically possible, but not politically, as it would imply a major change in political power in Germany, possibly even removing the NSDAP from power, replaced by a more conservative nationalist movement of well edicated Army and perhaps Naval officers. As this is not in the scenario so far, the ship could get completed, but it would remain a guncruiser, as it woudl not be fitted out with an airwing, as the Luftwaffe simply would have otehr priorities for her pilots and equipment, which certainly was not at sea.
To get Naval Airpower in Germany in WW2, you first have to get rid of the Hitler/Göring combination, as both were absolutely not going to put major Luftwaffe units at sea, while refusing to create a seperate airservice for the navy would parallise the ambition of the Kriegsmarine. Simply have a look on the OTL timeline adn the speculated commissioning of the Aircraft Carrier(s): Both were in the same very demanding period in WW2, when the Luftwaffe was already stretching itself to the limmits of its possibilities. With war in the East starting as well, the Luftwaffe simply was not going to equipe a special shipbased unit on the carriers.
To get Naval Airpower in Germany in WW2, you first have to get rid of the Hitler/Göring combination, as both were absolutely not going to put major Luftwaffe units at sea, while refusing to create a seperate airservice for the navy would parallise the ambition of the Kriegsmarine. Simply have a look on the OTL timeline adn the speculated commissioning of the Aircraft Carrier(s): Both were in the same very demanding period in WW2, when the Luftwaffe was already stretching itself to the limmits of its possibilities. With war in the East starting as well, the Luftwaffe simply was not going to equipe a special shipbased unit on the carriers.
BlondieBC
Banned
Of course they will be sunk. The questions are more when, where, and how? Does it impact the war? Do they take any/many UK ships with them?
Like most of these threads (German navy does a little better), the big winner is Japan. If say these two carriers are very successful and sink a few UK ships (say 2 carriers, one BB, and 3 cruisers), they UK will likely just pull more ships out of the Pacific and Indian Oceans. So the Japanese have a bit easier time running wild before crushed under the 15-1 GDP advantage of the USA.
JAG88
Banned
See? Bad reading comprehension.
I have never said anything of the sort, I just proposed and alternative outlook for the Germans, now we can discuss what the RN would do about it since I have not said a thing about them, much less claim that they would not do a thing! Morover, I expressly said that the commission of 2 carriers would certainly prompt a RN reaction, what reaction? That is what we are here to discuss!
That is if, of course, you can understand what you read. The same goes for the other people that had the same knee-jerk reaction, lighten up.
JAG88
Banned
Yes, but it is only a change of priorities, building slips, guns, armour is where the bottlenecks are. The carriers were laid down more than a year after their contracts were signed because there were no slips large enough to take them, GZ had to wait for Gneisenau to be launched in order to be laid down, PS had to wait for Prinz Eugen, although in this case the KM also wanted to delay the second carrier in order to include in it any modifications that trials with GZ my suggest. Tirpitz was given priority and had Scharnhorst's slip even though it had to sit empty for 3 months, ITTL Tirpitz gets Gneisenau's slip with a small 2 month delay to OTL.
The contracts for both carriers were signed in November 1935 and were, initially, both to be laid down in 1935 but then the KM changed its mind. The PoD here is there, no change, both of them to be laid down in 1936 slightly later as originally planned.
Yes, its basically the same PoD, pretty much everyone experimented with makeshift carriers for trial and training purposes.
That is because I just hate fatso!
The flakvierling entered production in mid 1940 and by then it was well know 2cm was not up to the task, the quadruple was just a quick patch and a no-brainer. The 3,7cm is a different kettle of fish but was available much earlier and is included in the idea that Luftwaffe in this case is trying to be helpful rather than claiming "the toys are mine!".
Which is why fatso had to die!
True, which is why I gave them more than a year to train after commission on top of having a training carrier.
By itself not that much, the battery was about the last thing to be installed so you just dont do it, plate it over and use the space for berthing. Installing the extra avgas tanks is a bit more complicated but not that much, after all the 15cm magazines are sitting right next to the avgas tanks.
Yeah, I was thinking in making a thread just about that.
Agree, there would be a response given the earlier commission of the 2nd carrier, I specially would expect them to request the Sea Hurricane (or maybe Martlets) and the Implacables maybe a year earlier since by then the RN would have an 8 to 2 advantage anyway, that in addition to bringing the air groups to full strength which was the permanent cross of the FAA.
Now, from 1940 onward the RN would have to keep at least 3 CVs of its 6 CVs (2 already sunk) in Britain in all times in case the German carriers try to break out, that alone should impose a strain on RN operations. It would be interesting to game an encounter between them.
The 2 PoDs certainly complicate the scenario, the first one is quite plausible and the second one is just the Luftwaffe having a little common sense, but the only way to achieve that means killing Goering. Making him suddenly smart sound like too much like ASB to me...
Death to fatso!
Ty for the well thought response btw.
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JAG88
Banned
Oh, but they already did and operated as such during the war until Raeder killed the CVs and they were absorbed into a Stuka unit. The same with the carrier fighters, remember the Crete campaign and a cruiser being sunk by Bf-109s? Those were the guys from Graf Zeppelin.
The units were constituted and trained, fatso wasnt happy about it but he conceded, now to get an expansion of the airwing and an actually helpful LW he has to go, no need to change much else.
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That is exactly what I was intending to. Politics prevented the forming of an independant Naval Airforce and Göring, the commander of all that was capable of getting airborn, besides the nr. 2 in the NSDAP, only after Hitler himself, would at any time overrule Raeder, being more senior in the ranking of the 3rd Reich. Raeder was aware of the fact the Kriegsmarine was third in ranking behind the Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe, so had actuallu not had had any hope of ever completing the Plan-Z ships as well as the carriers. This also is why construction of the first was not spectecularry rappid, as mentioned by others. (Laid down in 1935, but just launched in 1939 and never fitting out, while Scharnhorst and Gneisenau started at the about the same time, but were more quickly put in the water and commissioned.)
Pllan Z and all major shipbuilding in the 3rd Reich Period were inferior to Germany's actuall capacity, just as the three branches of the millitary had to compete over resources and the Navy always came last. More important wa the attitude of the Navy, with Raeder in particular. He did not mangle in political affairs, where the Wehrmacht and Göring did this, meaning his influence was very modest.
Keep in mind the first thing I posted in this thread was a request for clarification about whether we're assuming other states react or not. If you had replied by saying what you thought the other nations might do, or even something like "of course the British will respond, I'm just not sure what they will - or can - do. Any ideas?", you would have got a much better reception.
Instead, what we got was
You'll note that there's no British reaction assumed until the second carrier is added, which is far too late to do anything about it.JAG88 said:
At that point, I made a mistake - I tried to point out what I thought were the main flaws in your proposal by being facetious. I apologise for doing that, because it wasn't a good way to respond to a new member putting forward an idea and it set a bad tone for further discussion. So I'm sorry - I shouldn't have done that.
But you haven't helped your own cause by being dismissive of what people say with respect to problems the Germans might encounter or things the British might try, either. This is what makes people think this is just another Nazi-wank. If it's not - and you actually are interested in talking about what other effects this might have - then let's move forward on that basis.
So, genuine question here - what do you think are the implications of the Germans cancelling Tirpitz and Bismarck and instead getting Zeppelin and Strasser operational?
JAG88
Banned
Yeah, pretty much, the DKM was always the poor relative.
One caveat, the twins were laid down in 35, but GZ was in Dec. 1936 and scheduled to be completed in May 1940, before and in a shorter period than Bismarck (laid down July 1936, completed Aug 1940) which probably illustrates what could have been done if greater interest had been put into the project.
You need to understand that previous German carrier threads have tended to be poor, so posters are going to be as cynical as they would be if someone launched another Sealion thread.
You're also assuming that the Bf 109T would be a good carrier fighter. I doubt it - the 109 was a good fighter yet a large number were lost in landing accidents.
Look at how many Seafires the FAA lost in landing accidents to see how well the 109T would fare.
As for the other aircraft to be carried by the GZ - Stukas. Even Fulmars and Skuas could take these out.
Look at how many Seafires the FAA lost in landing accidents to see how well the 109T would fare.
As for the other aircraft to be carried by the GZ - Stukas. Even Fulmars and Skuas could take these out.
With a carrier threat right on their doorstep that's practically a given (within budgetary limitations of course).
JAG88
Banned
Ok, no problem, I got a bit unnerved by the warm reception.
What I meant regarding the reaction was what could the RN do construction wise, GZ was known to be in construction so an 8 month jump wont turn any heads, but 2 carriers might. In any case the RN was to have 8 carriers by 1940 with 2 more in the works, so I really doubt that construction wise they would do anything different beyond maybe laying down the Implacables a year earlier (1938), although those carriers were earmarked for the far east when it was already known Germany was building 2 CVs which shows that the RN felt comfortable with its CV numbers.
And remember there was also Eagle, Hermes, Argus, etc...
So the main reaction I believe would be in readiness, full squadrons instead of anemic flight groups, and maybe an early introduction of the Sea Hurricane so a couple squadrons are available in late 1940,after all the FAA was still enmeshed in its fighter-scout concept and waiting for the Firefly.
Bismarck suffers no change, the CVs affect him in no way, Tirpitz is delayed 2 months until Gneisenau vacates the slip, thats it. GZ was 85-90% complete when the was started, that is why not finishing it was so crazy, a slightly earlier laid down date and Raeder does not get to be an idiot.
ITTL GZ would, on the other hand, kill Prinz Eugen, which is actually not half bad given how "good" the German CAs were. Or rather a ripple effect, PE is laid down instead of Seydlitz and eventually used in the dumb attempt for CVL conversion, the Seydlitz ITTL is laid down in 1938 after GZ clears the slip and is broken up in 1939 to use the steel on U-boats and tanks, or sold to the Soviets along Lützow.
I cant take it so far that in the DKM a CV kills a BB in the production list, a CA yes, but not a BB.
Now the RAF is going to try to bomb the carriers from the start so they will be sent east until they are ready to sortie, then what... break out all four together in Jan 1941 and then operate in mixed pairs? One pair would do a short cruise without resupplying and then return to base while the other extends the cruise by resupplying form the pre-positioned supply ships of the Diethmarshen class.
Now once the ships are in France (La Pallice, likely) both the RN and RAF will throw everything after them, one thing is a BB that can be killed by another BB, but at sea a CV can only be killed by another CV unless the commander is retarded so I would guess continuous raids, to switch to night ones once the LW redeploys to provide extra cover for the ships at port (fatso is dead).
The RN would keep at least 3 fully manned carriers in British waters in order to react to any breakout, once they settle in a French port they would be kept nearby ready to react to a sighting, plus all available subs would stand guard off the French coast. I think that, in that context, if Bismarck sails the RN might actually ignore it.
Its just a BB.
JAG88
Banned
Yeah, well I am new, didnt expect that or at least I hoped people would actually read what I wrote instead of jumping to conclusions.
Sunk in remarkably short order and with considerable loss of life.
The Reich had ZERO experience in operating carriers, would have been trying to learn in what is possibly the worst place on Earth to conduct carrier operation, the upper reaches of the North Atlantic; and would be doing it with completely unsuitable airframes (the bF-109 might be the worst land based aircraft that was adapted or projected for adaptation to carrier operations in the entire WW II period). The Japanese design experience is hardly one that any sane group of naval architects would choose to emulate (the best example of why being the Tahio , although the Hiryu class and its follow on Unryu class designs deserve a nod as well).
Carrier take YEARS to develop, both the tactics and the pilot skills. Assuming the two KM decks are ready for sea by the end of 1939 (which is in and of itself questionable), it would be a solid year before they were properly worked up, just to the point where they could conduct low volume operations in good weather, and probably another six months before the air crews had the experience to get back aboard ship in the normal conditions that exist in the North Atlantic (there is a reason that, to this day, the USN trains fledglings out of Jax and off San Diego). If the KM was really fortunate it would be able to develop some sort of tactics at the same time the ships were being worked up. The tactics used by the IJN, RN and USN would be of little use, since none of those fleets had to fight their way out of home base just to get to open water, followed by long term cruises with absolutely no where to put into port and with extremely limited ability to replenish.
A KM carrier would be nothing but a Distinguished Service Cross (RN) or Navy Cross(USN) waiting to happen.