Priority for the Graf Zeppelins

JAG88

Banned
I've been following this off and on for the last day and see one thing that no one seems to have brought up.

Training! The British, Japanese and Americans had over 10 solid years of training and operations to develop experience and procedures. The Germans had no chance to develop that expertise. And it is being proposed to operate in the North Atlantic? The North Atlantic is generally considered to be the most carrier unfriendly environment that anyone operated in.

I also doubt the Germans had realistic concepts of how much abuse carrier born aircraft received. For example the BF-109 was known for having a 'tender' landing gear. How long do you think it would hold up to deck landings? especially in the very rough North Atlantic with sharply pitching decks? And how long would the fighters in the airgroup last during a cruise? The JU-87s may have held up better to naval use. They seemed to be pretty rugged in service on the Eastern Front.

I suspect that without several years of practice and training in peacetime the initial operational cruise of the GZ would be very disappointing at best.

Thats because you didnt read from the beginning.

ITTL the KM converts in 1938 a 21kts supply ship in a training carrier to test procedures and train crews and pilots, so they will have some 3 years experience before jumping in.

I suggest you read about the 2-year development process of the Bf-109T, it wasnt an improvised land fighter with a hook like the Sea Hurricane and Seafire and one of the first measures taken was to strengthen the landing gear. They also increased the wing area, enlarged the flaps and added a wing spoiler to improve power-on approaches.

Funny thing, the Ju-87 had a tendency to nose over if fully revved while braked, so the Fi-167 is a better choice.
 
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JAG88

Banned
Was there anyone in the KM who preferred carriers to battleships or a convoy raiding setup? Raeder would have never made sure the GZ gets prioritised. Neither would Dönitz, I think.

All it needs is to be placed 3rd out of 5, ahead of the CAs but behind BBs and SSs, that is it.
 
Nope.
Sorry, that isnt the case.
The FAA were the only people who practised night attacks, and they most certainly did intend to use them against moving ships if the opportunity occured. They just didn't need to or get the chance against KM ships.

Check out what Somerville planned to do against the Kido Butai Indian Ocean excursion.

Built nothing to counter the terribly badly designed PB's? They built cruisers, fast battleships abd carriers, hunting PB's was one of their jobs. Look at the disposition and makeup of the hunting groups in October 1940.
Cruisers could deal with the PB's, let alone the heavy ships.

Japan built TWO big carriers. The others were two old conversions and some rather iffy builds in the early 30's. And if it hadn't been for war in 39, by the time the Japanese had 6 carriers the RN would have had 11 fleets, with more building.
2:1 isnt agressive enough for you??

who is to say the germans don't train for night missions as well; after all their fleet doctrine did have a night attacks focus, it wouldn't be out of the realm for their carrier doctrine to have a similar focus to the rest of the fleet

swordfish breaking through her cap and aa is going to be very difficult in single strike numbers (ie 1 on 1 carrier matchup)

there was a lot of public discourse in the UK that showed a major concern for the pocket battleships; and even more so in France, which spurred the construction of Dunkerque and Strasbourg; whilst the UK themselves didn't actually build anything to counter them; their design flaws were not readily discernable in the 30's anyway

11 fleet carriers without the war? me thinks not, more likely the oldest slowest gals get replaced (like eagle and argus forex)

in the end (assuming the guns were deleted and she had a 40ish plane group) GZ would have three major pluses

1. very fast; so she is not going to be to intercept and can elude many potential engagements (especially since her aircraft can spot pursuit ships)
2. very heavily armored, it would take a considerable amount of munitions to sink her
3. her aircraft would be faster than the RN's carrier aircraft by a considerable amount and would act as something of a multiplier; ie an ME-109 at sea is worth x number of slower fulmars

otherwise she would still have all the downsides that most of the german fleet including but not limited to
1. dangerous gauntlet to break out into raiding areas
2. insufficent escorts in number
3. escorts limited in range
4. total lack of fleet service support
5. dangerous gauntlet to return home

it's not appalling or outrageous to say it would take 2 carriers acting in concert to sink her; she weighed 35k tonnes and was heavily armored
 
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