Priority for the Graf Zeppelins

JAG88

Banned
The contracts for both Graf Zeppelin and "carrier B" were signed in November 1935 along with Bismarck's (and months earlier than Tirpitz's), what if Germany actually gives the carriers a higher priority instead of the lowest?

In that context, Graf Zeppelin is laid down in April 1936 (gaining 8 months on RL Graf Z) instead of Prinz Eugen (to be laid down after GZ), and have “Peter Strasser” laid down after Scharnhorst is launched (gaining 5 months on RL Graf Z) with Tirpitz inheriting Gneisenau’s slip on December 1936. The DKM could have had 2 carriers by the end of 1939 to deploy along the twins in CV/BC raiding pairs from mid 1940 onwards. In order to train the aircrews and experiment with the catapult system (and get it out of the way quicker) they could have equipped Dithmarschen or another suitable ship with a fight deck, small hangar and catapult.

In this scenario the Luftwaffe is actually helpful (fatso dies a horrible fiery death instead of Wever, lets say) and it demands certain changes if the DKM is to use its personnel and aircraft, among those fitting of air search radar (contemplated in 1938-39 and included in the 1942 plans) and replacement of the light flak mounts with their own 2cm flakvierlings and 3,7cm flak 36s. Tri-axial stabilized mounts sound great but the LW knows that to down an aircraft you need lots of lead in the air, after all, that is why the 2cm was to be phased out in the LW until Rheinmetal came up with its flakvierling idea. Replacing the 11x3,7cm twin mounts and 7x2cm singles with 17x3,7cm flak 36 and 9x2cm flakvierlings balances out and the lighter 3,7cm shell of the flak 36 allows for a far greater number of 3,7cm and 2cm shells per gun (3500) for the same original weight.

Btw, in his book Israel doubts that the catapult system would have been used once operational trials began, it is too cumbersome, so lets assume they are dropped after trials on Dithmarschen along with the Ju-87Cs which depended on the catapult system for a full load launch. From now on they would rely on the larger Fi-167, and since this would further reduce the number of aircraft carried the LW reconsiders its requirement of keeping a 2m distance from the hangar walls and allows for a tighter fit, closer to that advocated and shown by the IJN. Therefore, in this scenario the Graf Zeppelin’s entire airgroup would be composed of 40 Fi-167As and 24 Bf-109Ts (research of the types would have to begin earlier in tone with the higher priority of the carrier project). Of course, adding more aircraft and replacing the Ju-87s means 38t extra plus 94t of avgas in order to keep 4t of fuel per aircraft.

Forced to find additional space for the extra fuel, the DKM resorts to a measure that historically it had considered in 1939, deletion of the 15cm battery, this measure would save 550t and more than compensates for the additional weight incurred by carrying radar and additional aircraft, makes room for the additional aircrew and makes the former 15cm magazines available for storage, and since they are conveniently located right next to the avgas tanks integrating them into the existing system should be fairly simple

Early in 1941 the Fi-167B is to receive a more powerful DB601F and a MG151/20, with the F model-based Bf-109T3 receiving a DB601E and a MG151/20 as well. In the meantime, airframe development of the Fw-190 has been completed and a carrier version is requested, adaptation is to be carried out between Focke-Wulf and Fieseler. A limited series of Fl-265s are ordered to operate as plane guards.

The BCs would provide close escort, SAR for downed pilots with their 3 Ar-196s and an additional dimension for convoy attack. For example, lets take Operation Berlin, Graf Zeppelin and Scharnorst run into HMS Ramillies and convoy HX106...

The sighting is reported to the subs, Scharnhorst sent in to taunt Ramillies with a few shells from very long range, in order to draw it a bit farther from the convoy and its escorts, and then GZ launches an alpha strike on the BB, 20 Fi-167s armed with TTs in two waves (2nd one to attack only if necessary, otherwise go after the merchies), 12 with PC500 bombs (three of the aircraft with 2xAB250-3 with 108x2Kg bomblets each for flak suppression) plus a few fighters to strafe the few AA mounts R had, that should be plenty enough to take care of a WW1 BB.

After Ramillies is crippled/sunk, then Scharnhorst, the subs and the airgroup can mop up the now dispersing convoy and its remaining escorts.

Resupply from the Dithmarschens when needed, rinse and repeat.

What so you say, does it make a big splash?
 

Gunnarnz

Just to clarify here, are we assuming that the British - or anyone else - do absolutely nothing different from OTL while all this is going on?
 

JAG88

Banned
Gunnarnz said:
Just to clarify here, are we assuming that the British - or anyone else - do absolutely nothing different from OTL while all this is going on?
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Those carriers were under construction already and the British had to at least count on GZ being ready in May 1940 as scheduled and no that should make no difference, now the addition of a second carrier is likely to generate a reaction from the RN.
 
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Generaloberst

Banned
Having two carriers doesn't guarantee German troops parading through London in the slightest.

In fact, I'd expect them to get sunk.
 

Devolved

Generaloberst said:
Having two carriers doesn't guarantee German troops parading through London in the slightest.

In fact, I'd expect them to get sunk.
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They would be targets for RAF bomber command and even though they had problems with accuracy (to say the least) they would keep damaging and delaying them. OTL they knocked the Gneisenau and Prinz Eugen out of the war.

Operational German carriers are going to get a lot of attention and I'd expect them to be hit and spend most of their time under repair until later in the war when improved accuracy and bigger bombs destroys them.
 

sharlin

Banned
If the germans had completed them they still have a fair few problems, you need to train pilots to land on them, you need to sort out the terrible sea going qualities of the GZ (she had a permanent list thanks to bad designs) and a whole host of issues before she becomes effective
 

JAG88

Banned
Devolved said:
They would be targets for RAF bomber command and even though they had problems with accuracy (to say the least) they would keep damaging and delaying them. OTL they knocked the Gneisenau and Prinz Eugen out of the war.

Operational German carriers are going to get a lot of attention and I'd expect them to be hit and spend most of their time under repair until later in the war when improved accuracy and bigger bombs destroys them.
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They were priority targets and GZ was attacked a couple times to no effect which was the usual result for such attacks on KM ships until later in the war, they will be fine at least initially.

These ones have of course the advantage of having its own fighter umbrella which would life hard if not brief for the RAF bombers, a different proposition than say the twins in France.

And you need to get them in port, there is no way you can follow them as with Bismarck, any tracking ship would get sunk very quickly before even getting within visual range.
 

JAG88

Banned
sharlin said:
If the germans had completed them they still have a fair few problems, you need to train pilots to land on them, you need to sort out the terrible sea going qualities of the GZ (she had a permanent list thanks to bad designs) and a whole host of issues before she becomes effective
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Ships are completed in mid-late 1939, operational and trained in mid-late 1940. According to Breyer the list was caused by the extra equipment installed in the 1942 refit, in this case the only extra are the radars, so no list.

Initial training was handled by the Dithmarshen beginning in 1938, then the pilots and crew have a full year to train on their own carriers.
 

Gunnarnz

So in other words Germany forgets about Tirpitz and Bismarck, concentrates on the two carriers, and has them operational by 1940. Meanwhile, on the other side of the English Channel, the British completely fail to pay any attention to this development and continue acting exactly as they did IOTL.
Until 1941! When the carriers take to the sea and, escorted by Scharnhorst and Gneisenau, start ruthlessly savaging British convoys. The British, completely unable to protect themselves from this form of attack, are forced to watch helplessly as their convoys are sunk wholesale.
Resupplying at will and with no possibility of Allied interference, the Kriegsmarine - with their new carriers - goes on to rule the North Atlantic with a rod of iron.

Not to put too fine a point on it, I think we need a few more details about why the British don't pay any attention to this. IOTL the existence of Tirpitz and Bismarck was enough to cause the RN grave concern, and tie up a substantial portion of the Home Fleet as a counter for them if they should ever set sail (Tirpitz probably did more harm by staying tied up in Norway than she could have by fighting a naval battle). ITTL, where those ships don't get built but the carriers do, we can't really expect them to be completely ignored by everyone else. The British are going to try something to counter them... the question is what?
 

JAG88

Banned
Gunnarnz said:
So in other words Germany forgets about Tirpitz and Bismarck, concentrates on the two carriers, and has them operational by 1940. Meanwhile, on the other side of the English Channel, the British completely fail to pay any attention to this development and continue acting exactly as they did IOTL.
Until 1941! When the carriers take to the sea and, escorted by Scharnhorst and Gneisenau, start ruthlessly savaging British convoys. The British, completely unable to protect themselves from this form of attack, are forced to watch helplessly as their convoys are sunk wholesale.
Resupplying at will and with no possibility of Allied interference, the Kriegsmarine - with their new carriers - goes on to rule the North Atlantic with a rod of iron.

Not to put too fine a point on it, I think we need a few more details about why the British don't pay any attention to this. IOTL the existence of Tirpitz and Bismarck was enough to cause the RN grave concern, and tie up a substantial portion of the Home Fleet as a counter for them if they should ever set sail (Tirpitz probably did more harm by staying tied up in Norway than she could have by fighting a naval battle). ITTL, where those ships don't get built but the carriers do, we can't really expect them to be completely ignored by everyone else. The British are going to try something to counter them... the question is what?
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You really have very bad reading comprehension, dont you? Too bad.
 

sharlin

Banned
Jag instead of being snarky, perhaps explain? We get that its a Kriegsmarine wank but you need to do little things like explain why the RN would go hurduyr and ignore the obvious threat of German carriers.
 
Pangur

Pangur

Donor
sharlin said:
If the germans had completed them they still have a fair few problems, you need to train pilots to land on them, you need to sort out the terrible sea going qualities of the GZ (she had a permanent list thanks to bad designs) and a whole host of issues before she becomes effective
Click to expand...

There is all of this and there is also the RN Aircraft carriers and subs for that matter. If what you are suggesting came to pass then one likely result would be a carrier battle in either the North Atlantic or the North Sea. My money would be on the RN BTW - Far to much experience operating carriers for starters
 

Gunnarnz

JAG88 said:
You really have very bad reading comprehension, dont you? Too bad.
Click to expand...

I think my comprehension is just fine, actually. Effectively you've said "Germany gets a couple of carriers, talk about how screwed the British are". Which is fine, but this isn't the ASB forum so we expect at least a token nod towards plausibility. You're positing a significant increase in capability for the Kriegsmarine, and at the same time assuming no-one else will pay any attention to this development until it's too late. This is pretty unlikely; nothing happens in a vacuum. If you want people to take the idea seriously you might want to show that you've thought about some of the issues that are bound to come up.
 

sharlin

Banned
Actually i'd ammend that from "Germany gets a couple of carriers, talk about how screwed the British are"

to

Germany gets a couple of carriers whilst the British drink terpentine and batter their faces with ballpine hammers at the Admiralty from about 1935 onwards, talk about how screwed the British are."
 

Devolved

The problem with almost every WW2 German wank is that it relies on the Allies not responding in any reasonable way to the new threats being presented.

There's nothing wrong with Germans building carriers or Tiger tanks with Chobham armour. But there needs to be a logical response from the Allies. Show how th Allied response would still fail and then we have a worthy debate.

But we have....

The Germans have two large carriers sailing with the 'sisters' and the British respond with OTL HMS Ramillies!

Sloppy. The quality needs to be higher if you think you are good enough to attack other people's reading skills.
 

Ian Hathaway

Personally I think the RN would be less worried by the switch of priorities, after all aircraft carriers in the early stages weren't up to much in the North Sea and Atlantic ... the RN used theirs to attack land based targets mainly. One reaction you might see though is the exploration of a better British carrier based fighter.
 
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