Printing press invented by Muslims
- Thread starter Bebop
- Start date
The issue is litography to keep the arab writing, specially the one fro the Qu'ran the most exact possible,if we solved that the issue is the movable pieces but something something in Baghdag....
I suppose you could do that.
800-850: The Mu'Tazilah consolidate their power greatly and win the court battle by finding ways to assassinate various Mamluk generals. As well, Ya'qub ibn Layth al-Saffarid is killed in battle against either the Zabuls or Yaqb ibn Assir, thus, removing Persian independence for several years.
Instead, Mayzar al-Dabvanid is captured earlier and is executed before information regarding his dealings with al-Afshin become common knowledge. This leaves al-Afshin alive and a staunch ally of the Mu'Tazilah. His regimes thus continues tolerating Zoroastrianism in Sogdia. His presence also begins to increase and is given power over Tabarestan.
Yahya ibn Umar, is killed before he revolts as he fails to garner Alid support in Kufa. The result is, the denial of a spiritual ancestor to al-Dibaj and thus no Zanj revolt. Subsequently, the Mihna or inquisition continues as this was one of the main sources of Mu'Tazilah funds.
As a result of this, a thinker in Baghdad develops the type writer for the purpose of mass creating pamphlets and boards to give information regarding the Mihna and give caution to pilgrimage roots and jurisdictions. The economy would also be buzzing with heightened slave trade due to no Zanj revolt, giving even more incentive.
So, we get the type writer invented in the Abbasid Caliphate in the 880s, by way of Mu'Tazilah need in regards to the Mihna. The Muslim world however, bans the use of the typewriter for creating Qurans and other religious texts. One thing you can imagine is using these mass producing pamphlets as advertisements in major cities. This is likely what would develop in this scenario.
800-850: The Mu'Tazilah consolidate their power greatly and win the court battle by finding ways to assassinate various Mamluk generals. As well, Ya'qub ibn Layth al-Saffarid is killed in battle against either the Zabuls or Yaqb ibn Assir, thus, removing Persian independence for several years.
Instead, Mayzar al-Dabvanid is captured earlier and is executed before information regarding his dealings with al-Afshin become common knowledge. This leaves al-Afshin alive and a staunch ally of the Mu'Tazilah. His regimes thus continues tolerating Zoroastrianism in Sogdia. His presence also begins to increase and is given power over Tabarestan.
Yahya ibn Umar, is killed before he revolts as he fails to garner Alid support in Kufa. The result is, the denial of a spiritual ancestor to al-Dibaj and thus no Zanj revolt. Subsequently, the Mihna or inquisition continues as this was one of the main sources of Mu'Tazilah funds.
As a result of this, a thinker in Baghdad develops the type writer for the purpose of mass creating pamphlets and boards to give information regarding the Mihna and give caution to pilgrimage roots and jurisdictions. The economy would also be buzzing with heightened slave trade due to no Zanj revolt, giving even more incentive.
So, we get the type writer invented in the Abbasid Caliphate in the 880s, by way of Mu'Tazilah need in regards to the Mihna. The Muslim world however, bans the use of the typewriter for creating Qurans and other religious texts. One thing you can imagine is using these mass producing pamphlets as advertisements in major cities. This is likely what would develop in this scenario.
Why would the printing press be banned from creating Qur'ans? Wouldn't it be better to use this Abbasid Printing Press to create Qur'ans to insure the continued growth of Islam?
Flocculencio
Donor
Precisely- like Protestantism, Islam is a religion which places primacy on the (at least theoretical) accessibility of the revealed text to all believers, without the philosophical necessity of a clergy to interpret it. One would think a home grown printing press would be enthusiastically adopted.
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Yeah, Islam isn't like Catholicism in which it's the Church's way or the highway. Islam allows for Sharia interpretation just as long as you're following the 5 Pillars of Faith. Although it is recommended to look to scholars for any questions while Qur'an says its verses are clear. Which in context they are.
PhilippeO
Banned
1) there might be issue on lithography, as Nivek says above. primitive printer might not be capable of flowing line that arabic use
2) there might be issue with some Islamic doctrine about permissibility of using printer
since John7755 is Arabs, he probably know something why Quran is not compatible with primitive printing
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Printing#cite_ref-Carter_6-1
2) there might be issue with some Islamic doctrine about permissibility of using printer
since John7755 is Arabs, he probably know something why Quran is not compatible with primitive printing
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Printing#cite_ref-Carter_6-1
That's not quite true. Sunni Muslims (at any rate the sources that I have read) are constantly emphasising the danger in personal interpretation of the Qur'an without guidance of scholars. And the printing press for the Qur'an was originally very controversial (just as translations of the Qur'an were and to some extent still are). John7755 probably knows more but I think that the Ulema are meant to hold something like a monopoly on interpretation of the Qur'an (that may be a bad way to put it).
Then why not just print copies of hadiths and interpretations alongside the Quran?
No. Islam places primacy on Tawheed of all types. To read is not a right incumbent upon a Mu'min, what is incumbent, is to accept the teachings of the Ulema. And trust me, you do not want this discussion with me, I have mountains of evidence in this field.
Hadith are also to be interpreted. Reading the Quran and knowledge of the Hadith without guidance brings fitnah unto the Ummah. All Ulema of pedigree agree to this.
Printing interpretations maybe, but few will read them. The study of Islam is very, very complex, much more complex than this site's inhabitants views.
I'd like to have this discussion. If any sect of Islam is correct, what sect would it be?
It is Allah's way or the high way. The clear opinion is that the deen is interpreted by those Ulema and the Ahl ul Hali wal Aqd. The 5 pillars are the characteristic of Islam, it is not all. Taqwa and Imaan come from much deeper and greater power. Namely, the five pillars are useless if one lacks the observance of Tawheed. Further, the shahada is the door to Tawheed, one must be diligent to keep it (taqwa).
I interpret things from the Sunnah (Sunni) position. However, the Mu'Tazilah has the same opinion on the matter as Ahl Sunnah wal Ijma'ah. The only group that spurn the Ulema are the Khawarij/Shurha and the Murji'ah. Shi'i do not have the same concepts, they have the Imamah.
I wouldn't go quite that far on the Catholic Church's ability to control doctrinal and authoritative matters. The CC engaged in what was called the Counter-Reformation, in which they adopted many of the same tools as the early Protestants, including the printing press, polemics, and stabs at engaging popular movements led by charismatic figures. And wars. And various forms of repression. Only about 50 percent successful. The Sunnis did this type of thing much more successfully in regard to Shi'ism.
Flocculencio
Donor
But this is as per OTL with the printing press as a foreign innovation from a European culture that us directly threatening the Islamic world.
ITTL, with the press being an indigenous innovation, couldn't there be a very different reaction to it? And the very presence and potential of printing in the 11th C Islamic world is going to change the religion hugely.
With all due respect to John7755, he's coming at this from the perspective of a believer looking at Islam as revealed truth.
I'm coming from it from a historicist perspective where the revealed truths in question are merely the culmination of centuries of historical development under varying influences. What the ulema say IOTL may very well be different in TTL, simply because IOTL 12th C Islam didn't go through the experience of every guy with an opinion and access to a press being able to make his views heard. Just as the press enabled the widespread dissemination of different perspectives across Christendom, it will do so across the Dar al-Islam.
The counter argument that Muslims wouldn't print religious texts because the ulema caution against it, is only looking at the situation as per OTL. It's like coming up with a TL where printing was invented outside Europe and arguing that the Reformation is impossible because the church establishment would be against the dissemination of differing views.
The entire consequence of mass printing in this context is that the opinion of the religious establishment becomes a lot less weighty. I'm not sure why this would be less likely to happen in the dar al-Islam than in Christendom.
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Both sides in the Christian-Islam divide were pretty open about accepting technological advances that were useful, as opposed to "ideas". Like Arabic numbers, the printing press is something useful - the rub is in how it is used.
IMHO the reluctance to use printed text for the Qu'ran may come from the Jewish tradition that the Torah must be handwritten (lots of elaborate rules on this). Printed copies or translations can be used but for theological purposes only the original handwritten text is definitive.
IMHO the reluctance to use printed text for the Qu'ran may come from the Jewish tradition that the Torah must be handwritten (lots of elaborate rules on this). Printed copies or translations can be used but for theological purposes only the original handwritten text is definitive.
This reminds of the early days of the office typewriter. For a time some bushiness men did not consider a typed or printed document a sincere or legal text, even with a handwritten signature.
While I understand your point, I do believe that there is fundamental differences in people and religious groups. Not all cultures are the same not the tolerance. Islam at the time, that I specified, was extremely conservative and lacked the same cultural innovations that Europe had up to that point, which allowed it to adopt it in regards to religious texts. For instance, religious texts in Europe were being produced in non liturgical languages, we do not have anywhere close to this in 800s Islamic world.
As an example, the Saffarids used Arabic as its court language primarily, despite most of its courtesans not speaking it beyond the simple rudiments. Thus, the Islamic world has not really even moved past using other languages as mediums, much less copying religious texts using a type writer that has a seemingly higher chance of errors and lacks the beauty of calligraphy. This also should take into account that Kufic, used to write Qurans then, is a difficult script and was most commonly used for special occasions, those of class in the Abbasid lands would certainly look down upon any adaptation of Kufic.
Also, do note, my scenario gives the vector as the Mu'Tazilah, a very strict sect. One who, would see such a use of the typing as an affront to Tawheed, since only Allah can create the Quran (Mu'Tazilah believed the Quran was created) and copying it by hand is the only precedence.