Primitive Europe today and an advanced Middle East and Africa?

Not exactly. Carthage's empire was primarily a maritime thinly-spread mercantile empire. Carthage's only major colonization effort in Spain was a result of its defeat by the Roman Republic in the First Punic War. Carthage's interests were not in establishing a strong imperial state in the manner of Rome, but in establishing commercial interests. That is not to say that Carthage could not have developed an effective empire through this, but it would have been improbable.
All true, but without Rome putting a stop to them it is certainly possible that Carthage would continue to expand it's influence and control in Europe. There are certainly plenty of colonial empires that started off as a network of coastal trading posts and gradually expanded into the interior over time.
 
Easiest way is a climatic POD.

Have the gulf stream peter out or shift southward some time in the neolithic or early Bronze age. Then, northern Europe will have a climate similar to Canada, and southern Europe similar to the New England. You'd probably reduce the carrying capacity in terms of population by at least 80%. Greece, Italy, and Iberia will be marginal areas similar to Scandinavia OTL, and there probably won't be any civilization to speak of north of the Alps or the Pyrenees - possibly not even agriculture.
 

cashew

Banned
Easiest way is a climatic POD.

Have the gulf stream peter out or shift southward some time in the neolithic or early Bronze age. Then, northern Europe will have a climate similar to Canada, and southern Europe similar to the New England. You'd probably reduce the carrying capacity in terms of population by at least 80%. Greece, Italy, and Iberia will be marginal areas similar to Scandinavia OTL, and there probably won't be any civilization to speak of north of the Alps or the Pyrenees - possibly not even agriculture.

What would cause that to happen? An asteroid impact? A mega volcanic erruption?
 
What would cause that to happen? An asteroid impact? A mega volcanic erruption?

Well, current climatic models suggest that all we need is more warming, paradoxically. Essentially if enough ice melts on Greenland, a lens of fresher water in the north Atlantic would sit on top of the more saline water, and push the gulf stream under the surface.

Given climate science suggests it could happen with a bit more global warming now, I see no reason why a warming spell in the past couldn't have had the same effect. Perhaps a sudden release of methane from deep sea sediments?
 
Well, current climatic models suggest that all we need is more warming, paradoxically. Essentially if enough ice melts on Greenland, a lens of fresher water in the north Atlantic would sit on top of the more saline water, and push the gulf stream under the surface.

Given climate science suggests it could happen with a bit more global warming now, I see no reason why a warming spell in the past couldn't have had the same effect. Perhaps a sudden release of methane from deep sea sediments?

What? Are you saying that if the Earth farted, civilization as we know it would come to an end? Pray the Earth does not have gas.:D
 
I don't think Europe would be necessarily primitive; they'll have citilization, but its easy to envision that they could be and remain backwards. I'm not sure about Africa becoming dominant, but the Muslim states I can envision maintaining their technological, cultural and scientific edge over Europe and become the first too industrialize without too many PODs. Its out there, but the notion of Muslim countries placing Europe under colonial rule isn't completely implausible.

As for powerful Sub-Saharan African civilizations. The best I can envision is a Mali Empire based on Timbuktu that gains its wealth from trade with the prosperous Islamic world, and with Europe remaining feudal this trade route would always remain an important one. Eithiopia could also become powerful, but I don't envision that many others.
 
The easiest POD is to have Song China industrialize. The Middle East and Africa will be in a better position to benefit from the new Industrial Africa than Europe will. And in the presence of such a newly powerful non-Christian civilization European Christianity will entrench itself and scientific inquiry will be repressed and things will sink into a culturally conservative period that will culminate in Asia colonizing Europe and modern-day Christianist terrorist movements.
 
I present you http://www.uchronia.net/bib.cgi/label.html?id=barninshal#2 your answer. Lion's Blood and Zulu Heart by Steven Barnes. Somehow Socrates fleeing t Alexandria makes Alexander the Great not die and set up his empire in Egypt which lives on to tag tea with Carthage to destroy Rome and somehow Alexander does it with some Ethiopian Queen so a dual monarch of sorts in Egypt and Ethiopia goes onto to become dominated by Africans and Arabs (thinking somewhere along the line that Alexander the Great was black), convert to Islam, discover America and use slaves from the wilds of Europa on plantations eventually in the 19th century the Ethiopian south wants to secede from the Egypt-Ethiopia Empire so its kind of a mix of the American evolution and Civil war rolled up into one.
 

cashew

Banned
Well, current climatic models suggest that all we need is more warming, paradoxically. Essentially if enough ice melts on Greenland, a lens of fresher water in the north Atlantic would sit on top of the more saline water, and push the gulf stream under the surface.

Given climate science suggests it could happen with a bit more global warming now, I see no reason why a warming spell in the past couldn't have had the same effect. Perhaps a sudden release of methane from deep sea sediments?

Maybe we dont necessarily need a primitive Europe. Maybe we can have a Europe that remains feudal and plagued by warlordism and religious dogma like China and the Middle East in OTL, while the Golden Age of Islam never ends but results in industrialization, democratization and Islamic reformation that destroys the stranglehold of the Islamic Mullahs on the Middle East.
 
Top