Status
Not open for further replies.
Not very far future, my friend.
As a matter of fact, I would not be surprised if there will be a single conurbation from Venice to Verona by TTL 2021

As a resident of the unholy concrete sprawl that is western Lombardy, I don't know if that will be a good thing, my corner of Milan is a crime against the environment. :p
 

As a resident of the unholy concrete sprawl that is western Lombardy, I don't know if that will be a good thing, my corner of Milan is a crime against the environment. :p
The term "conurbation" is by itself neutral, and simply means "a city area containing a large number of people, formed by various towns growing and joining together".
It can be planned, in order to provide growth with respect and care for environment and for quality of life, or it may grow wild and end up with the "unholy concrete sprawl" @Neoteros describes (and with which I am very well familiar, unfortunately).

It goes without saying that economy growth attracts immigrants, be they from the countryside or from other Italian states (and sooner or later also from outside the borders of the Confederation). I have made a preliminary attempt to try to avoid concentrating industrialization in the Genoa-Milan-Turin triangle, by putting in play Cispadania, Romagne, Tuscany and obviously Veneto, and this should be beneficial. If the same model can be put in place in Southern Italy too (once the question of Naples has been sorted out), it would also have a beneficial impact, which might improve the Sicilian economy too. Sardinia might be a bit harder to improve, given the distance from the mainland, but we will see. Notwithstanding all these early efforts, and a much more thriving economy, it is quite obvious that in the 19th century there was no widespread love for the environment: I only hope that the mishandling of environment will be less than IOTL, and a culture of environmental preservation will surface early. I don't hold my breath, though.

Anyway, 2021 is 173 years in the future: no one can say with certainty what is going to happen, which means that you should not read too much in my words.
A conurbation is just one of the many possible scenarios.
 
Spreading the industrialisation out would also alter migration patterns. Without the massive migrations from the South into the industrial triangle, the cities there are likely to remain smaller. The Gallo-Italic languages of Lombardia, Liguria and Piedmont are also more likely to remain the dominant day-to-day language of the communities, and literary Milanese, Turinese and Genovese may not decline so completely as they did OTL after 1860.

Another solution to the Venetan capital problem might be Mestre, it's still a separate commune to Venice at this point and still small, it could be a good spot to build a purpose-built capital, and being at the other side of the railway bridge to Venice it can claim some degree of continuity while signalling a less (if you'll pardon the pun) isolated outlook. It's also still inside the lagoon and not a bad port, so it should make sea connections with Trieste and the Stato del Mar no more difficult than from Venice itself while remaining very defensible from maritime attack. And as a purpose built capital it wouldn't favour any of the already existing major cities.
 
The term "conurbation" is by itself neutral, and simply means "a city area containing a large number of people, formed by various towns growing and joining together".
It can be planned, in order to provide growth with respect and care for environment and for quality of life, or it may grow wild and end up with the "unholy concrete sprawl" @Neoteros describes (and with which I am very well familiar, unfortunately).

It goes without saying that economy growth attracts immigrants, be they from the countryside or from other Italian states (and sooner or later also from outside the borders of the Confederation). I have made a preliminary attempt to try to avoid concentrating industrialization in the Genoa-Milan-Turin triangle, by putting in play Cispadania, Romagne, Tuscany and obviously Veneto, and this should be beneficial. If the same model can be put in place in Southern Italy too (once the question of Naples has been sorted out), it would also have a beneficial impact, which might improve the Sicilian economy too. Sardinia might be a bit harder to improve, given the distance from the mainland, but we will see. Notwithstanding all these early efforts, and a much more thriving economy, it is quite obvious that in the 19th century there was no widespread love for the environment: I only hope that the mishandling of environment will be less than IOTL, and a culture of environmental preservation will surface early. I don't hold my breath, though.

Anyway, 2021 is 173 years in the future: no one can say with certainty what is going to happen, which means that you should not read too much in my words.
A conurbation is just one of the many possible scenarios.
Protection of the environment might first emerge in a concern about food security. From memory, Italy was a significant importer of durum wheat, and concerns about this are part of the motivation begind colonising Libya and Eritrea, since only southern Italy is suitable to grow durum wheat. Any 19th Century polity is going to be uncomfortable importing one of its staple foods, and the prospect of becoming more dependent on imports due to pollution or degradation of the soil might well spur a sort of environmentalist movement.
 
I'm also curious about the matter of Ragusa/Dubrovnik, as it has a very strong history as an independent republic and made a strong attempt to restore itself after the Napoleonic occupation, is at this point overwhelmingly ethnically and linguistically Croatian and was never part of the Venetian Republic. In fact, it was actually one of Venice's main rivals to the very end. The Ragusans might be lobbying hard for their own republic, either within the Italian Confederation or allied to it.
 
The term "conurbation" is by itself neutral, and simply means "a city area containing a large number of people, formed by various towns growing and joining together".
It can be planned, in order to provide growth with respect and care for environment and for quality of life, or it may grow wild and end up with the "unholy concrete sprawl" @Neoteros describes (and with which I am very well familiar, unfortunately).
Industrialisation in the 19th century, even under good political circumstances, will be freakingly hurtful for the environment, and so will urbanisation.
But there's enough time in the later 20th and then 21st century to recover - the Ruhr region, for example, is quite a nice place to live in right now actually, and it was a dirty nightmare in the 19th c.
 
Industrialisation in the 19th century, even under good political circumstances, will be freakingly hurtful for the environment, and so will urbanisation.
But there's enough time in the later 20th and then 21st century to recover - the Ruhr region, for example, is quite a nice place to live in right now actually, and it was a dirty nightmare in the 19th c.
I do agree in full. As a matter of fact, the reclamation of the Ruhr was a virtuous example I had in mind
 
I'm also curious about the matter of Ragusa/Dubrovnik, as it has a very strong history as an independent republic and made a strong attempt to restore itself after the Napoleonic occupation, is at this point overwhelmingly ethnically and linguistically Croatian and was never part of the Venetian Republic. In fact, it was actually one of Venice's main rivals to the very end. The Ragusans might be lobbying hard for their own republic, either within the Italian Confederation or allied to it.
Ragusa was under Venice for 150 years or so, following the 4th Crusade. That's not the point, anyway. Ragusa had a role to play in the traffics to and from the Ottoman Empire, and partners in Italy, chiefly Ancona. Nothing of this is still applicable in 1848, and anyway Ragusa has settled down as Part of Dalmatia since the Congress of Vienna gave it to Austria. They will still be part of Dalmatia, and the differences between Croats and Italians are still minimal at this point in time, as I have already pointed out at least twice.
 
I did a thing, that is, a hypothetical flag for the new Cispadanian state:

Lesser_Arms_of_Bourbon-Parma.svg.png


The design (a horizontal, square tricolour with an emblem in its center) is that of the flag of the Cispadane Republic, but with the coat of arms of the House of Bourbon-Parma and the colours of the flags of both Parma and Modena, that just so happen to be shared with those of the aforementioned noble house.
 
I did a thing, that is, a hypothetical flag for the new Cispadanian state:

View attachment 701722

The design (a horizontal, square tricolour with an emblem in its center) is that of the flag of the Cispadane Republic, but with the coat of arms of the House of Bourbon-Parma and the colours of the flags of both Parma and Modena, that just so happen to be shared with those of the aforementioned noble house.
It's a nice design, and the color scheme is very nice, but....it would look a bit out of place.

I've nothing against leaving the coat of arms of the House of Borbone-Parma, surmounted by a ducal crown, but the tricolor must be the classic one (which incidentally was first chosen in Reggio Emilia in 1797).
While we are on this topic, I believe that Piedmont-Sardinia's flag would be the same one chosen in IOTL 1848: the tricolor, with the coat of arms of House Savoy in the white field, surmounted by a regal crown.
The flag of Lombardy would be quite similar, but the crown surmounting the coat of arms would be the Iron Crown of Lombardy.
The Federal Republic of St. Mark would have the Lion of St. Mark in the white field of the tricolor (obviously no crown).
The Grand Duchy of Tuscany would again be the tricolor, with the coat of arms of the House of Lorena surmounted by a ducal crown.
The kingdom of Sicily will have the tricolor with the Sicilian Triskele.
I have not yet made up my mind about the two successors states of the Papal States: the Roman Republic should have the tricolor, with the Capitoline She-wolf in the white field (or another symbol taken from republican Rome); the Grand Duchy of Romagne might show the coat of arms of Savoia-Carignano surmounted by a ducal crown (I've been unable to find a symbol for Romagne, and this is a default solution; if someone has a better idea, I'll be happy to listen).
The flag of Naples will be chosen if and when they join the Confederation ;)
 
It's a nice design, and the color scheme is very nice, but....it would look a bit out of place.

I've nothing against leaving the coat of arms of the House of Borbone-Parma, surmounted by a ducal crown, but the tricolor must be the classic one (which incidentally was first chosen in Reggio Emilia in 1797).
While we are on this topic, I believe that Piedmont-Sardinia's flag would be the same one chosen in IOTL 1848: the tricolor, with the coat of arms of House Savoy in the white field, surmounted by a regal crown.
The flag of Lombardy would be quite similar, but the crown surmounting the coat of arms would be the Iron Crown of Lombardy.
The Federal Republic of St. Mark would have the Lion of St. Mark in the white field of the tricolor (obviously no crown).
The Grand Duchy of Tuscany would again be the tricolor, with the coat of arms of the House of Lorena surmounted by a ducal crown.
The kingdom of Sicily will have the tricolor with the Sicilian Triskele.
I have not yet made up my mind about the two successors states of the Papal States: the Roman Republic should have the tricolor, with the Capitoline She-wolf in the white field (or another symbol taken from republican Rome); the Grand Duchy of Romagne might show the coat of arms of Savoia-Carignano surmounted by a ducal crown (I've been unable to find a symbol for Romagne, and this is a default solution; if someone has a better idea, I'll be happy to listen).
The flag of Naples will be chosen if and when they join the Confederation ;)
I wonder what's the common theme....🤔😆
 
I did a thing, that is, a hypothetical flag for the new Cispadanian state:

View attachment 701722

The design (a horizontal, square tricolour with an emblem in its center) is that of the flag of the Cispadane Republic, but with the coat of arms of the House of Bourbon-Parma and the colours of the flags of both Parma and Modena, that just so happen to be shared with those of the aforementioned noble house.O
Oh, me likey! However, I do agree with @LordKalvan that the choice will be a classical Italian tricolor. This design might be used by the Duke as a personal flag, though.
It's a nice design, and the color scheme is very nice, but....it would look a bit out of place.

I've nothing against leaving the coat of arms of the House of Borbone-Parma, surmounted by a ducal crown, but the tricolor must be the classic one (which incidentally was first chosen in Reggio Emilia in 1797).
While we are on this topic, I believe that Piedmont-Sardinia's flag would be the same one chosen in IOTL 1848: the tricolor, with the coat of arms of House Savoy in the white field, surmounted by a regal crown.
The flag of Lombardy would be quite similar, but the crown surmounting the coat of arms would be the Iron Crown of Lombardy.
The Federal Republic of St. Mark would have the Lion of St. Mark in the white field of the tricolor (obviously no crown).
The Grand Duchy of Tuscany would again be the tricolor, with the coat of arms of the House of Lorena surmounted by a ducal crown.
The kingdom of Sicily will have the tricolor with the Sicilian Triskele.
I have not yet made up my mind about the two successors states of the Papal States: the Roman Republic should have the tricolor, with the Capitoline She-wolf in the white field (or another symbol taken from republican Rome); the Grand Duchy of Romagne might show the coat of arms of Savoia-Carignano surmounted by a ducal crown (I've been unable to find a symbol for Romagne, and this is a default solution; if someone has a better idea, I'll be happy to listen).
The flag of Naples will be chosen if and when they join the Confederation ;)
These are all excellent points. The Roman Republic might choose a lictor's fasces, given the ceremony that took place ITTL (the she-wolf might be at this point too assosicated with the City of Rome rather than a global Roman legacy) with the words "Dio e Popolo", that were on the OTL flag. For the Romagne, it's either the Carignano coat of arms of maybe the symbol of Bologna. Maybe a mish-mash of the two? I like the fact that in the bolognese symbol there is the word "libertas", I believe the Romagne would like it.
The Confederal banner might be a plain tricolor. I do like the idea of having a tree in the white field, taking inspiration from the "Italy is a tree" quote by Ferdinand, or maybe a star, as it was one the ancient Italian symbols and can be universal.
 
These are all excellent points. The Roman Republic might choose a lictor's fasces, given the ceremony that took place ITTL (the she-wolf might be at this point too assosicated with the City of Rome rather than a global Roman legacy) with the words "Dio e Popolo", that were on the OTL flag. For the Romagne, it's either the Carignano coat of arms of maybe the symbol of Bologna. Maybe a mish-mash of the two? I like the fact that in the bolognese symbol there is the word "libertas", I believe the Romagne would like it.
The Confederal banner might be a plain tricolor. I do like the idea of having a tree in the white field, taking inspiration from the "Italy is a tree" quote by Ferdinand, or maybe a star, as it was one the ancient Italian symbols and can be universal
1639091307778.png


This is what I found on internet as the coat of arms of the Savoia-Carignano.
It doesn't look too bad, and is different enough from the coat-of-arms of the main branch.

Incidentally, I might even see Maria Cristina adopt a variant of this coat of arms for Sicily: the Cross of Savoy on the left, and the Triskele on the right (instead of the fleurs-de-lys of the Carignano.

As far as the Roman Republic is concerned, I think that leaving the final decision to the Roman Constitutional Convention might be the right idea: they might end up with a minimalist SPQR in gold letters, with a laurel and an olive branch around it.

Let's leave the decision for the Confederation flag to the main Constitutional Convention. It might end up with a simple tricolore, or maybe they can think up a device to put on the white field
 
I wonder how long it'd be before people start pointing out how easily all these flags can be confused, and how difficult they'd be to distinguish when they're actually flying.
 
I wonder how long it'd be before people start pointing out how easily all these flags can be confused, and how difficult they'd be to distinguish when they're actually flying.
The important thing is that the flag of the Confederation is immediately recognizable.
The state flags are mostly exposed in each single state (or in the district of Verona), and they are not really difficult to distinguish, since the coat-of-arms of the reigning monarch is used (and the two republics will put up the Winged Lion and the SPQR, which are really well known and easy to recognize)

OTOH, it is very important that the tricolore is used by every member state, in order to build up the consciousness that all of them belong together.
 
Last edited:
1639144625480.png


This would be the flag of the Grand Duchy of Tuscany (same as the state flag used IOTL in 1848-49)

1639144798785.png

and this one is the flag adopted by the Republic of Saint Mark (same as IOTL, 1848-49).

[both flags taken from Wiki]
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top