Oh, I'm always up for a good Risorgimento TL with unredeemed territory! I can't wait to see what you have in store for Naples.
Welcome on board, and enjoy the ride, then. There will be surprises galore along the road, and also Naples will get its spot in the sun of the narrative: until now it has just played a tangential role in the events of Sicily and Rome, but it will soon come under the spotlight. ;)

Which would be in your opinion the best outcome for Naples on the basis of what's happened in Italy in TTL 1848?
@Tarabas and I have obviously a roadmap in mind (and an interesting one, if I may say so), but we are also interested in the wish list of readers. :):)
 
I know the question has probably been asked before, but is it realistic that rebels manage to take all the major cities in Dalmatia? Weren't Italians already a minority in most of them at the time, expecially Cattaro?
Aside from that, great update.
Thanks for you feedback! Just to complement on @LordKalvan's answer, I would like to share the crucial part of the text of the formal protest issued by the municipality of Spalato upon receiving convocation from the Croatian Diet in Zagreb (protests which was directly send to Wien, if I may add).

"La Dalmazia, che da oltre sei secoli ebbe sempre trattati e tratta anche oggidì i suoi pubblici affari in lingua italiana, - che vi s'insegna nelle scuole, e vi si parla e vi si scrive quasi esclusivamente in tutte le città ed in tutti i villaggi del litorale e delle isole ed anche in molti paesi mediterranei - e in cui trovansi dovunque, specie nelle città, famiglie di origine italiana, con abitudini e costumanze italiane, non potrebbe che far parte della sezione italiana della Monarchia austro-ungarica".

Spalato was the second city to issue such a formal protest, the first one being Zara. So, as LordKalvan pointed out, a reborn Republic of Venice treating the former constituents as equals, in full control of the Adriatic, backed by the Sardinians who have humiliated Austria, should seem a good option even all over Dalmatia.
 
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pls don't ban me

Monthly Donor
Benvenuto a bordo! Thanks a lot for your feedback, I am glad you liked it. Also, thanks for your offer to help; it is most welcome! The idea of the death of Vittorio Emanuele in the crib (besides the fact that it almost happened, hence it is a good POD IMHO) came from the observation that in most cases, VEII had been useless if not detrimental to the cause (like Carlo Alberto, albeit in a different way). Since Ferdinando seemed quite a decent fellow, and the POD gave liberty to give him a different upbringing, we thought it was worth it to give him a chance. As for Genoa itself, we will have an update to cover it after the end of the war. In the meantime, hope you enjoy the rest, and any comment, remark, criticism, question is always most welcome!
do not worry! as a genoese i can give as much mugugno(grumble) as you want
 
Oh, I'm always up for a good Risorgimento TL with unredeemed territory! I can't wait to see what you have in store for Naples.

Welcome on board, and enjoy the ride, then. There will be surprises galore along the road, and also Naples will get its spot in the sun of the narrative: until now it has just played a tangential role in the events of Sicily and Rome, but it will soon come under the spotlight. ;)

Which would be in your opinion the best outcome for Naples on the basis of what's happened in Italy in TTL 1848?
@Tarabas and I have obviously a roadmap in mind (and an interesting one, if I may say so), but we are also interested in the wish list of readers. :):)
I am also pretty curious about your opinion on Naples ;)
 
@Tarabas
Just finished catching up with the TL.
good job until now.
I'm very curious of how you'll handle the Genoese question later.
Also as a Genoese i'm satisfied of the premature death of Vittorio Emanuele so he can't define my fellow citizens as " Razza di canaglie vile e infetta" as he did after the sack of Genoa in 1849.
if you need info about the events, i'll be glad to help
Welcome on board from me too :)
There will be no "rape of Genoa" ITTL, because obviously events are quite different, and the war is on a very different path.
I'm no great fan of OTL VEII either, and as far as the "butcher of Genoa" himself, Alfonso La Marmora, he has already botched up the campaign in Trentino, and Ferdinando is less than pleased with him :rolleyes:: if I were a betting man, I would not bet on him having a great future ITTL.

Genoa is going to be industrialized even faster than OTL: as a Genoese, you may have noticed that Ansaldo was incorporated 6 years earlier than OTL, and it is just the beginning. OTOH, Genoa and Livorno will be on the frontline of the workers' fight for better wages and conditions (besides the industrial workers, there are plenty of people working in the port facilities, and they're starting to ask for something better than subsistence wages). We'll see how things work out.
 

pls don't ban me

Monthly Donor
Welcome on board from me too :)
There will be no "rape of Genoa" ITTL, because obviously events are quite different, and the war is on a very different path.
I'm no great fan of OTL VEII either, and as far as the "butcher of Genoa" himself, Alfonso La Marmora, he has already botched up the campaign in Trentino, and Ferdinando is less than pleased with him :rolleyes:: if I were a betting man, I would not bet on him having a great future ITTL.

Genoa is going to be industrialized even faster than OTL: as a Genoese, you may have noticed that Ansaldo was incorporated 6 years earlier than OTL, and it is just the beginning. OTOH, Genoa and Livorno will be on the frontline of the workers' fight for better wages and conditions (besides the industrial workers, there are plenty of people working in the port facilities, and they're starting to ask for something better than subsistence wages). We'll see how things work out.
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less good about the socialist since i'm of right-wing ideas but happy for Genoa having a better treatment
 
I wonder if Liguria and Sardinia might ask for some measure of self-government after the war is over; being in a federal Italian state rather than a unitary one, they could seize on that to try and reverse the 1847 Perfect Fusion.

Especially Sardinia, since it was treated with borderline colonial contempt.
 

pls don't ban me

Monthly Donor
I wonder if Liguria and Sardinia might ask for some measure of self-government after the war is over; being in a federal Italian state rather than a unitary one, they could seize on that to try and reverse the 1847 Perfect Fusion.

Especially Sardinia, since it was treated with borderline colonial contempt.
Sardinia is out question considering is the mainland of the monarchs. Liguria i hope they can considering what i was saying before for the Genoese being unhappy due to their republic being gifted to a historical enemy(savoy) at the Wien congress, without any plebiscite.
the best solution i can think of is a republic restored, with a diarchy: the Sardinian king as hereditary doge and a genoese noble elected as secondary doge( with more powers). This solution makes everyone happy: the Savoyard are rulers while the genoese govern themselves.

Also i wonder what happens with the Spanish debt if San Giorgio bank re-opens.
 
Which would be in your opinion the best outcome for Naples on the basis of what's happened in Italy in TTL 1848?
I don't think there can be a "good outcome" for Naples in 1848, since they'll inevitably lose Sicily. Maybe the people might enforce a constitution... or, to propose something ASB, a looser Two Sicilies could be restored with Maria Cristina taking both the Crowns of Naples and Sicily (keeping them separate, much like before the Napoleonic wars) after an insurrection.
With the way the Unification is being handled, however, the South as a whole will be in a much better spot once Italy's done, expecially compared with OTL.
 
less good about the socialist since i'm of right-wing ideas but happy for Genoa having a better treatment

The main reason for the failure of the Liberal Revolutions of 1848 (which appeared to have taken most of continental Europe by storm) was the refusal of the liberal side to consider that the democrats had also demands which were not solved by the adoption of a constitution and the easing up of censorship. This pattern started in France, where the elections of April 1848 returned a majority for the "law-and-order" party (and was followed by the "Bloody Days of June" and ended up with Louis Napoleon emperor of France) and was later repeated in the Frankfurt Parliament in Germany, where a growing portion of the members started to think that an agreement with the reactionaries would be easier and safer than a compromise with the democrats (this one ended up with the Prussian troops riding roughshod over the constitutional governments of western Germany, and ultimately kickstarted the process of German unification on a path which didn't end up in an optimal way :rolleyes: ).
OTOH, the British establishment (which was not made up of bleeding hearts for the rights of the lower classes) was able to see the wisdom of granting reforms (elimination of the rotten boroughs, Poor Laws, Catholic Emancipation, Corn Laws, extension of the electoral franchise) which were fought tooth-and-nail by the constituents of the men who carried out these reforms, but ultimately proved to be necessary.
Which brings me to my point: if you're afraid of revolution, reform is usually a better and cheaper path than just increasing the number of policemen and sending people to jail for political reasons.
The men who are at the forefront of this TL (Ferdinando, Cavour, Ricasoli, Capponi, Casati, Manin, Avesani, Settimo just to make a few names, but there are many others who have not yet come under the spotlight) are not bleeding hearts either, but they are also not blind.
I often quote Tomasi di Lampedusa: "to change everything in order to change nothing" is what happened in Italy IOTL during the Unification process. The result of this approach has not been great, has it? :rolleyes:
 
I wonder if Liguria and Sardinia might ask for some measure of self-government after the war is over; being in a federal Italian state rather than a unitary one, they could seize on that to try and reverse the 1847 Perfect Fusion.

Especially Sardinia, since it was treated with borderline colonial contempt.

Sardinia is out question considering is the mainland of the monarchs. Liguria i hope they can considering what i was saying before for the Genoese being unhappy due to their republic being gifted to a historical enemy(savoy) at the Wien congress, without any plebiscite.
the best solution i can think of is a republic restored, with a diarchy: the Sardinian king as hereditary doge and a genoese noble elected as secondary doge( with more powers). This solution makes everyone happy: the Savoyard are rulers while the genoese govern themselves.

Also i wonder what happens with the Spanish debt if San Giorgio bank re-opens.
Some measures of self-government for Sardinia might be in the cards, although I would argue that it would be better simply to reform the way Sardinia was administered.
With all due respect for Liguria, I believe that if anything Liguria should be better integrated with Piedmont in order to make the most out of the construction of infrastructures, industrialization and economic boom.
I guess you missed something I had Cavour say a couple of interludes ago : once the constitutional door is open, the power of Parliament will inevitably raise, and with it the clout of provincial representatives. If the people of Liguria send to the Parliament in Turin men with vision and proactivity, they will prosper. If they send men who want only to fight for myopic self-interests, they will pay the price for it.
 
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I don't think there can be a "good outcome" for Naples in 1848, since they'll inevitably lose Sicily. Maybe the people might enforce a constitution... or, to propose something ASB, a looser Two Sicilies could be restored with Maria Cristina taking both the Crowns of Naples and Sicily (keeping them separate, much like before the Napoleonic wars) after an insurrection.
With the way the Unification is being handled, however, the South as a whole will be in a much better spot once Italy's done, expecially compared with OTL.
Is the loss of Sicily necessarily a bad thing? Historically, neither a king in Palermo ruling the mainland too or a king in Naples ruling Sicily too have been very successful.
If I were a Neapolitan, I would think that a friendly independent Sicily is better than a province held by force.
You're quite right, however, when you say that this alternative unification will leave Southern Italy in a better spot. Still only time will tell. ;)
 
Narrative Interlude #25- A Night at Villa Borghi - Part 1
A Night at Villa Borghi - Part 1
Villa Borghi, 4 April 1848, Evening


Cristina Trivulzio did not waste much time in her room at Villa Borghi. A new dress, a few touch-ups of her make up and her hair, and she was ready for the evening. She was intrigued by the words of Count Cavour: what was the man up to? The best thing was to go and look for the delegation from Milan, and try to get the latest news.
However, while she was walking toward the main staircase, she recognised one of the three men who were talking quietly in an alcove of the corridor: "Enrico Misley ! A lot of years have passed since you helped me in Marsiglia (1). How are you, and what are you doing here?"
"I am well, Cristina, although a bit older and more worn by life. I am here for the same reason as you, I would say: to make Italy. Let me introduce my friends: Nicola Fabrizi (2), an old and dear friend from Modena, Luigi Chiesi (3), from Reggio di Lombardia, Giuseppe Borsani (4), from Parma. The gentlemen are delegates of the Provisional Government of Cispadania : the old duchies, with the only exception of Piacenza, which has already applied for annexation to the kingdom of Sardinia . Gentlemen, let me introduce Princess Cristina Trivulzio di Belgioioso, an ardent Italian patriot."
"I assume the Provisional Government has not yet decided on the future form of government."
"You are correct, Princess. There are different options to be evaluated, and we have agreed to take the necessary time in order to make the right decision." Luigi Chiesi, the oldest of the three delegates. Cristina could think of only one option (and a half, maybe) but she kept that for herself.
"I can commend your wisdom, sir, even if I do not know you. There will be time to debate the form of government, but now any effort must be dedicated to win the war." A voice with a Lombard accent "Carlo Cattaneo, per servirvi. I do apologise for interrupting you, but I could not resist to the desire of paying my respects to Princess Belgioioso."

There were a few more minutes of amicable chatting, then Cattaneo and the Princess left to search for the Milanese delegation.
"I was told they can usually be found further down the corridor, where they have more or less officially appropriated a room for their use. We Milanese are not shy, and also care for our comforts. I understand that there are three members from the Provisional Government, including Gabrio Casati (5), its president , and two from the War Council (6), Giuseppe Ferrari (7) and Enrico Cernuschi (8). Trusted men, and good friends both. You know I don't see eye-to-eye with Casati, though: a slippery eel of a man, if ever there was one. "
"I think you are ungenerous towards Gabrio Casati, Carlo. He has always tried to do his best to improve the situation in Lombardy, and he was successful in some of his attempts. I know him well enough to assure you that his heart is in the right place."
"A bit difficult to sympathize with a man who is ready to bend his knee to a foreign king just a few days after the lackeys of another one have been kicked out of his city (9), and a man unfit for times of war. Be it as it may: I will be civil, for now. While we are talking of slippery men, I would suggest you to be careful when dealing with Misley: you certainly know he's been under a shadow since the failure of the insurrections of 1831."
"I met Misley in Marsiglia when I had to go into exile in France: I had little money, and no friends, but Enrico befriended and supported me, and gave me a letter of introduction in Paris. Without him, I don't know what I could have done. I know the rumors that Misley was in cahoots with the duke of Modena, and betrayed the other conspirators, but I have never believed them."
"Even conspirators can be generous and truthful once or twice in their lives"
Cristina bit her tongue, and knew it was time to change topic.
"How is the relation between the Provisional Government and the War Council, Carlo? I believed that there had been a rapprochement."
"There is an agreement to postpone any decision on the political status of Lombardy until after the end of the war, just like I said to the gentleman from Reggio. It wasn't an easy decision for me to accept this, but it makes sense, provided that each side plays fair. I went to Venice also to avoid temptation on my side, if you want to know." The last words were said with a smile.
"And what are the latest news from Venice? I heard rumors, but they sound so wild."
"My dear Cristina, the truth will put to shame the wildest rumors. The Republic of St. Mark has been reborn, the cities of Veneto and Friuli have all sworn allegiance to it, the Austrian fleet has been stolen from Pola by an audacious coup de main, Dalmatia has risen against the Austrians and is now free and hoists the flag of the Lion, there is a formal alliance between the republic and the kingdom of Sardinia. If these events are not wild enough, I have kept the most puzzling one for last: the man who is behind the resurrection of the republic and the alliance is none other than Ferdinand of Savoy, and he asked for nothing in exchange. I have met him in Venice: very courteous, intelligent, soft-spoken, but you cannot read his eyes."
"It would seem that the staunchest of Republicans has been put under the spell of a Monarch... But, fear not! It takes but a Princess' smile to see through the eyes of a Prince." A gorgeous example of said smile followed, so gorgeous that Cattaneo had to make use of all of his philosophy not to lose his composure. It took a while for him to ask himself, silently but solemnly, whether a spell had truly been cast upon him, and by whom.

Footnotes​
  1. Enrico Misley, an expatriate from Modena, had befriended and Helped Cristina Trivulzio when she had to go in exile in France in 1832​
  2. Nicola Fabrizi, also from Modena. A military man, exiled since the 1830s and a fervent democrat​
  3. Luigi Chiesi, from Reggio di Lombardia (now Reggio nell'Emilia). Liberal, the mastermind behind the Provisional Government of Cispadania: a temporary union between the duchies of Parma, Reggio e Modena after the dukes had left their domains.​
  4. Giuseppe Borsani, from Parma. Democrat.​
  5. The other two members from the Provisional Government were Pompeo Litta, Minister for War, and Achille Mauri, delegate from Mantua and Secretary to the Provisional Government. Both liberals.​
  6. The War Council of Milan represented the republican, democrat faction of the insurgents, and was usually in opposition to the liberal, Piedmontese-sympathizing Provisional Government​
  7. Giuseppe Ferrari, lawyer and philosopher. Positioned on the democrat side, but often critical of the actions proposed by Mazzini​
  8. Enrico Cernuschi, lawyer and democrat. Fought bravely at Porta Tosa during the Five Days of Milan, a great friend of Cattaneo​
  9. Gabrio Casati was often (and in many cases unjustly) accused by the pro-republic democrats to have been too accommodating with the Austrians and too willing to ask for annexation to Sardinia. The former accusation is certainly untrue, the latter is more credible. G. Casati is one of the might-have-beens of Risorgimento: he played certainly an important role as Podesta' of Milan to ameliorate the conditions under which the Lombards had to live, without major results, but the fault lies on the Austrian side, which was unwilling to grant any concession. Casati managed to have an Italian prelate installed as archbishop in 1847 (instead of another German one, like the Austrians wanted) and turned the inauguration procession in a kind of anti-Austrian, pro-Pius IX demonstration, and vehemently protested in front of the Governor for the harsh reaction of the Austrian troops in occasion of the "cigars strike" of early January '48. He was also a brother-in-law of Federico Confalonieri, incarcerated by the Austrians after 1832, and freed only thanks to the insistence of Casati and the campaign that Belgioioso orchestrated from Paris, involving in it many prominent Frenchmen, including the aged Marquis de Lafayette.​
Made in @LordKalvan & Tarabas
 
One of the things I like about this story, it's that as far-fetched some of the events detailed in the chapters might seem to be at first glance, a quick look at the footnotes is enough to realize that they could've actually happened, since every single person featured in them only needed a slight nudge in the right direction, given what they did or said in OTL. Except for Victor Emmanuel II, of course. :p
 
One of the things I like about this story, it's that as far-fetched some of the events detailed in the chapters might seem to be at first glance, a quick look at the footnotes is enough to realize that they could've actually happened, since every single person featured in them only needed a slight nudge in the right direction, given what they did or said in OTL. Except for Victor Emmanuel II, of course. :p
It's Risorgimento: Crossover edition!
 
One of the things I like about this story, it's that as far-fetched some of the events detailed in the chapters might seem to be at first glance, a quick look at the footnotes is enough to realize that they could've actually happened, since every single person featured in them only needed a slight nudge in the right direction, given what they did or said in OTL. Except for Victor Emmanuel II, of course. :p
Thank you! You know, I have been extensively discussing this with @LordKalvan. The view I had on many "actors" of the Risorgimento changed dramatically while studying for this TL, not to mention the many men and women relegated to footnotes IOTL who had great potential, sound ideas and that got sidelined for many reasons. So as you pointed out, we tried to give this slightest of nudges to see where it leads them- and us. About VEII, maybe he will be given a chance to shine in another project, "VEII's crusade" :p He said that if he had 200000 soldiers, he could have "solved the Eastern question" (or something like that). I highly doubt he could, but it would be a wild fun to write it XD
 
OT: I am really pleased and happy for the interest shown to our project, your comments and the discussion on the topic. Thank you guys! Also, welcome to page 20 ;)
 
One of the things I like about this story, it's that as far-fetched some of the events detailed in the chapters might seem to be at first glance, a quick look at the footnotes is enough to realize that they could've actually happened, since every single person featured in them only needed a slight nudge in the right direction, given what they did or said in OTL. Except for Victor Emmanuel II, of course. :p

It's Risorgimento: Crossover edition!
Thanks guys :) :) , and kudos to @Neoteros for the insight.
There was a wealth of talent available in Italy in 1848, which unfortunately went unused, or wasted in gallant but doomed attempts.
Things might have been truly different, and a much more satisfactory result might have been achieved if only the right nudges had been applied (and the Sardinian army had remembered to pick up maps of Lombardy and Veneto before crossing the Ticino, of course :rolleyes:).
It was painful to get rid of Vittorio Emanuele, and I fought tooth and nail to save him (1), but there was no reasonable way to do it.
At least his untimely death has resulted in the later birth of Maria Cristina, so it was not a complete waste. ;)

Enjoy the ride!

(1) It's a lie: I never liked VE, not as a man nor as a king, and getting rid of him was a guilty pleasure :p
 
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