Ganishka
Banned
Did they really got Rhodes?BTW, not only did I make a VT-BAM, I made a GIF of all the expansions so far:
I will be surprise if Athens don't control the Straits by the end of this TL.
Pride Goes Before a Fall: A Revolutionary Greece Timeline
- Thread starter Earl Marshal
- Start date
I will be surprise if Athens don't control the Straits by the end of this TL.
yeah they got it,the south aegean is now a greek sea,honestly first they need to acquire Konstantinoupolis and then we can talk about the straits
I don't know about Konstantinopolis, but Thessaloniki now seems like a short walk away for the Greek Miltary from Larissa ITTL...
Maybe it's time for greece to really invest in railroads.. like the athens to Larissa railroad
greece also needs to connect Ioannina with Arta and Preveza and invest in infrastructure in Epirus,it is quite bad at the moment
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I think you mean you will be surprised if Constantinople doesn't control the Straits by the end of this TL
But, amazing work on the gif. As someone who isn't particularly in the know on modern Greek history, that helped a ton in envisioning the territorial gains!
You're welcomeYou all are posting faster than I can respond!
Indeed it is. Qajari Persia is just the first country to join the war, there will be others joining on both sides as the conflict progresses.
I've been on this forum for over 3 years now and to be honest I had no idea what a VT-Bam was until you mentioned it now. Having done some research on it, I would be honored if you did one for my timeline.
Thank you very much!
Greece was very serious about going to war with the Ottomans and Britain, which would have been disasterous for all involved. Fortunately, they managed to reach an accommodation with each other, but to be honest it was a perfect storm for Greece. Russia is slightly stronger than OTL, the Ottomans are slightly weaker, and France is not involved. By itself, Greece wouldn't have been an issue for the Ottomans and Britain, but when combined with the juggernaut that is the Russian Empire, Greece would be an unwanted distraction that would require more resources to occupy than it was worth. Ultimately, it was cheaper to make a deal with Greece than go to war with them, albeit a rather expensive deal. It also helped that Ottoman Thessaly and Epirus were rather underdeveloped provinces.
Greece will benefit tremendously from these annexations. Not only will its territory increase by roughly 50%, but its population will also increase by 750k to 800k (a roughly 50% increase in population) as well. Thessaly possesses some of the best farmlands in Greece, the Dodecanese islands have a prominent sponge industry and famous wine industry, the Ionian Islands have currants and liquor industry, and Epirus has a moderate tobacco and dairy industry. Overall, it is a significant gain for Greece which will significantly benefit it in the years ahead. And that's not including the economic concessions Britain gave to Greece which will boost the Greek economy to new heights.
This does make sense for all involved, but I'm concerned that this would be too much for Greece right now. They already gained Thessaly, the Ionian Islands, the Dodecanese Islands and most of Southern/Central Epirus; if they were to get Northern Epirus too that would definitely be pushing it in my opinion. I am strongly considering this though.
There will definitely be some shenanigans by the magnates, but overall, Thessaly should be in a better place, much sooner than OTL.
This is more or less how I envision the border looking at the end of the war ITTL. Thanks for the work @Bloodmage
Your figure for the Ionian Islands is about right, it was around 236,000 in 1864 when it was ceded to Greece in OTL. ITTL in 1854, it has a population around 220,000 to 230,000 people. Thessaly as @Bloodmage has said is probably around 300,000 at this time, while the Dodecanese are somewhere in the ballpark of 60,000 people and Epirus has between 200,000 and 250,000 people. Added all up, its around 800,000 people, or a roughly 60% boost in Greece's population.
These treaties will be rather contentious for quite some time, especially among the more nationalistic members of Greek society. Most generally have a good opinion of the Clarendon-Kolokotronis Treaty and Treaty of Constantinople as they effectively gained land and money without having to fire a single shot. Obviously, there will be those who say they could have gotten more if they had gone to war, but it would have come at a cost.
There will definitely be some bad blood between Greeks and the Ottomans going forward, but lets be honest, they were going to be at odds with one another eventually anyway, it was only a matter of time. Going forward relations between Greece and the Ottoman Empire will be quite tense, to say the least.
They'll get it sooner than you might think.
Thank you very much!
Exactly. Its a clause added to treaties to discredit the renouncing state if they go back on their word and claim lands that they previously renounced. Granted, in the grand scheme of things it really doesn't do much, but it is an admittedly minor concession to the Ottomans that helps them save face.
Spyros Milios was the commandant of the Evelpidon School in 1840. He's a bit higher up the Hellenic Army's chain of command now and is probably one of Greece's leading Generals by 1854/1855.
While you are correct on the need for infrastructure in Epirus but the problem is that epirus has a very rough terrain making infrastructure development very difficult and expensive
I don't think Northern Epirus would be too much... like a lot of the other land ceded by thr Ottomans, its all stuff on the fringes of the Empire and filled with Greeks.
That said, there's still plenty of time to nab it in the future, and frankly, doubling the size of Greece without firing a shot is damned good deal... downright great when some of this land wouldn't be Greek for another century in OTL.
That said, there's still plenty of time to nab it in the future, and frankly, doubling the size of Greece without firing a shot is damned good deal... downright great when some of this land wouldn't be Greek for another century in OTL.
@Lascaris since you have knowledge on demography, may I pick your brain? That goes to anyone else who has similar knowledge.
The author told us that the current population is 1,4 million and both you and he estimated 750-800k new citizens. What would be the population at the turn of the century? I had a notion of 3,5mil, considering the advances in mosquito control (Copais), the earlier solution for the national plots of land and not having the large thessalian plain settled by rather few serfs tied to the chifliks. How does it sound?
I also have a tough time estimating the impact of the diverse economy and the thriving (even if small scale) industry to the demography of Greece. As far as I know, many second or third sons had to try their lack abroad, especially the islanders. Lastly, when economic prosperity is combined with very high birth rates (link at the end) how to estimate the demographic impact? It is possible that the 19th century crude birth rate was more than 40!
The author told us that the current population is 1,4 million and both you and he estimated 750-800k new citizens. What would be the population at the turn of the century? I had a notion of 3,5mil, considering the advances in mosquito control (Copais), the earlier solution for the national plots of land and not having the large thessalian plain settled by rather few serfs tied to the chifliks. How does it sound?
I also have a tough time estimating the impact of the diverse economy and the thriving (even if small scale) industry to the demography of Greece. As far as I know, many second or third sons had to try their lack abroad, especially the islanders. Lastly, when economic prosperity is combined with very high birth rates (link at the end) how to estimate the demographic impact? It is possible that the 19th century crude birth rate was more than 40!
Hmm. Some very back of the envelope calculations here, just reproducing OTL demographics.
1853: 1,400,000
1861: 2,283,000 (including 800,000 in new territories)
1871: 2,511,000
1879: 2,893,000
1889: 3,207,000
1896: 3,569,000
On the side note what are mineral resources that greece gains with the annexed territories?
Pretty poor: there is some limestone, marble, lignite and chromite in Thessaly but I dont think the deposits are big enough to have commercially viable mines. The limestone and marble deposits may do the trick, but I m not sure. In any case, the mineral wealth in Greece lies in Central Greece, Euboea and the Cyclades. Any capital should be invested in developing the iron, magnesite, nickel, lead and lignite deposits of the old Kingdom.
Chromium and titanium in Thessaly... neither is immediately useful. Gypsum, clay and some marble in Epirus. Gypsum in Rhodes, Karpathos and Kasos. Chromium in Rhodes, copper, iron and lead in Kos. Sulfur in Nisyros. Lignite all over the place. Nothing not already available really.
There are other resources too in the new provinces; Fishing (in the Dodekanese and in the Ionian Sea), and the most important resource of all, which has been highlighted by some prominent readers of this TL, meaning the Human Capital. Excellent sailors (Dodekanese) , gifted artisans (Epirus) and above average literate people (Ionian Islands).
@Earl Marshal , this is just a recommendation regarding the greek population. I know there is a canon for 1,4 mil in the mid 1850s, but Petmezas in his stellar work on greek agriculture, states that in 1864 after the annexation of the Ionian Islands the population was 1,365 mil.
ITTL the old kingdom included Crete, Chios, Samos, Ikaria, Arta and Preveza. Besides, Ibrahim was more contained in the revolution so for e.g Arcadia and Achaia were less raided (with fewer Greeks sold to slavery), while the eastern Central Greece didn't suffer as much as in OTL. Lastly, there is the arrival of European migrants after the 1848 revolutions. Perhaps 350k people could be added in the mid 1850s situation, or something like 400k if we take into account even a small population increase since 1830s.
ITTL the old kingdom included Crete, Chios, Samos, Ikaria, Arta and Preveza. Besides, Ibrahim was more contained in the revolution so for e.g Arcadia and Achaia were less raided (with fewer Greeks sold to slavery), while the eastern Central Greece didn't suffer as much as in OTL. Lastly, there is the arrival of European migrants after the 1848 revolutions. Perhaps 350k people could be added in the mid 1850s situation, or something like 400k if we take into account even a small population increase since 1830s.
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1.4 million in 1853 seems roughly correct to me with a starting point of about 1000,000 people at independence. Crete would be 141,000 people, Samos 40,000, Chios 30-50,000 on the other hand Cretans and Samiotes that had not returned to their islands in OTL, roughly 10,000 in the case of Samos and way more in the case of Crete would not be in the OTL Greece balancing lower casualties during the war. Call it a starting population higher by a third compared to OTL that then grows by 37.6% up to 1853. Ad in some migration in 1849 and a bit higher population growth in 1831-33 when you don't have the anarchy after Kapodistrias death and the number's fit for going from roughly 1 million in 1830 to about 1.4 million in 1853.
I mean we already have a figure for the Ittl population in 1850 given that Koletis did a census,so it should be around there,but we also have to take into account that the emigration that will come to greece from western Europe as a result of 1848 revolutions(38.000)was the total figure for the whole period of 1849-1860,so it should be as you say around 1.4 million
didnt a lot emigration happen in the 1890-1910 period?i would expect the growth of the population of ittl greece to be higher given the increased standards of living and increased opportunities that the citizens have ittl
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