Pour le coeur

[MrP]

Ooh, lots of comments! Splendid, chaps. Thankee all very much!

If it could go all the way to Basra, that would definitely consolidate the Ottomans' hold on Mesopotamia.

Aye, the only problem is the British. IOTL they were very nervous about potential damage to their businesses. In the update below, I've filled in a few gaps, and fixed that problem. It also lays the seeds of explaining why the French go back on their previous secret support for Italy. Not too much today. I was planning to get a lot more done, before going to a pub quiz at 8-ish, but the drunks have decided to go early. I shall take a pen and paper and make some notes while there. Though if two IT fellas are able to help me substantially with WWI and the Balkans, I'll eat my hat!

Ooh, I shall PM The Dean, he might like the last bit of this and the first bit of the next update.

The Baghdad Railway:

The Morning Post, 16th December, 1911:

…has led to considerable concern and questions in the house. It has been intimated to this newspaper that British financial and strategic interests may be imperilled by this continuing construction unless certain limitations can be placed on it. The financial losses themselves are not too great a cause of concern, since trade with the German Empire will surely benefit us in turn. Nonetheless, the potential damage to British business is believed to lie behind the visit which Baron Inchcape will make next month to the government in Constantinople. It is not for us to speculate…

The Times, 19th January, 1912:

…German envoy stormed out of the negotiations, leading to a tense political situation for several days. His Imperial Majesty Kaiser Wilhelm II is said to most displeased at this turn of events, and has handsomely proffered his wholehearted apologies to the Sultan, and offered to dispatch his son and heir as the new envoy. However, it is unlikely that this offer will meet with approval in the Turkish Parliament unless the…

The Daily Mail, 24th February, 1912:

… has all contributed to a new era in Anglo-Turkish relations, and the signing of a compact between the British, Turkish and German governments, yielding certain beneficial rights to Anglo-German companies, such as the Anglo Persian Oil Company. Baron Inchcape, a director of that company, has recently been visiting the Sultan as a personal guest, and it is felt that this may have had some bearing on these negotiations. The new compact will permit an increase of customs duties from 11 to 14 percent, but has imposed limitations on German influence on the new construction to the benefit of British railway companies.

The recent attack on Turkish possessions in North Africa has been strongly deprecated by Baron Inchcape, who went so far as to accuse the Italian government of “pandering to populism of the very worst sort,” and claimed that the attack was “utterly unprovoked and an assault upon an innocent.” Baron Inchcape’s words have further improved his standing in the capital. The Ottoman Parliament met today to discuss the response to the current crisis, and Mr Riza moved that…

The Daily Telegraph, 1st March, 1912:

…met with Sir Gilbert Claughton of the L.N.W.R.* to discuss proposals for the development of the Berlin-Basra Railway last Monday. Meanwhile, representatives from the Turkish government have been meeting the directors of Stephenson’s** to discuss the construction of new locomotives for the proposed route. The successes of Stephenson’s in producing locomotives for export to Argentina and India has been widely touted, and their practical knowledge is beyond repute. Indeed, the superior qualities of British workmanship, and the indubitable hard and honest labour which goes to…

An ATL excerpt from required reading for those wishing to study the module “Britain and her railways in the Great War”, University of Wales, Lampeter, 1959:

FELL, A. The Channel Tunnel and food supplies in time of war. London, 1913.***

* London and North Western Railway, the largest company in the world at this time
** Robert Stephenson and Company Limited: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Stephenson_and_Company
*** The title of an OTL publication. I'm not just making something up.

 

[Douglas]

Interesting...but we need more!

 

[MrP]

Interesting...but we need more!

Well, here's what I've got done tonight. Taken a break from Europe to bring South America up to date. It's largely focused on matters naval, but there's a spot of social commentary, too. I may get the Balkans finished tonight up to 1914, and then there'll be the descent into mobilisation and war.

The Daily Telegraph, 21st September, 1909:

This series of strikes has been most deleterious to Chile’s reputation in the international community. The government has been engaged in negotiation with the Labour Federation of Chile, but has yet to reach an agreement acceptable to both sides. Meanwhile, the economic crisis has worsened, and the despicable series of assassinations has led to a collapse in confidence in the Peso. It is open to question just how long it will be before a state of martial law will be declared.

ATL Encyclopaedia Britannica, 1951 edition, Chile:

In 1906 the Government passed a law for working class housing, which marks the first intervention by the Government in a strictly social question. Later laws passed in favour of rest on Sunday (1907), the creation of the Office of Labour Statistics (1907), of laws for National Savings Banks (1911), for the care of abandoned infants (1912), for the regulation of conditions of labour including the labour of women and children…all point in the same direction.

The Times, 3rd February, 1910:

…has led to the formation of a new government, much to the relief of international financiers. Indeed, the nitrate tax alone is believed to have made Chile some $10,000,000 of gold in the last thirty years, which is hardly to be wondered at, given that Chile produces almost two thirds of the world’s nitrogen requirements. It is to be hoped that new social compact will prove to be a long-lasting one.

The Times, 17th March, 1910:

The order is certain to continue the naval race between the South American powers. The choice of the Fore River Shipbuilding Corporation of Quincy, Massachusetts, has shocked the European constructors from their complacency. For too long the established naval builders have taken for granted the favourable conditions under which they have operated. Now Argentina has reminded them of the harsh realities of the world. The two ships are expected to be laid down by this August, and with an expected displacement of almost 30,000 tons, and an armament of twelve 12” guns, they should prove fine additions to the Argentine Navy.

However, All is not bleak for British manufacturers. As part of the Chilean Government’s commitment to increasing defence spending in light of Brazilian and Argentine moves, she has ordered two more dreadnoughts, to be named for the national heroes Admiral Latorre and Admiral Cochrane…*

* Note that this construction is slightly ahead of OTL by about a year. By the outbreak of the Great War, Almirante Latorre (OTL HMS Canada) will have been delivered, and Almirante Cochrane (OTL HMS Eagle) will be completed for RN service as HMS Canada.

The Daily Mail, 12th May, 1911:

…surprising announcement by Brazil would have seen her acquire a third dreadnought, Rio de Janeiro. However, the frightful spectacle of the mutiny aboard Minas Gerais on 15th November, 1910, and President Hermes Rodrigues da Fonseca’s remarks last wee, in which he referred to the battleships as an unmanageable white elephant have led to much concern among naval constructors. In particular…

The Morning Post, 4th September, 1912:

…will see the sale of the Brazilian warship to Turkey, whose new government has been embarrassed by the impotence of her naval forces in the war with Italy. At 32,000 tons, and equipped with a dozen 14”/45 cal guns,* Sultan Osman I will head the modern navy, and extend the arm of the Sultan across all Turkish dominions.

* The initial plans for the ship which IOTL became HMS Agincourt were not for one with a turret for every day of the week, but a less crazy six turrets, each with twin main guns.

 

[MrP]

Ah, I'm just reading the 1951 Encyclopaedia Britannica to get a feel for the style of the period. Wikipedia can't supplant this!

It also has all these archaicisms and interesting kinds of information, for example, on Argentina:

The Race.-As in the United States, a new type has developed in Argentina as the result of a mixture of European races. There is less admixture of non-white blood than in any other American nation, with the possible exception of Canada and Uruguay. The native Indians have almost died out, the 1914 census showing 53,000, or less than .68%. Subsequent immigration has further reduced the population. Nearly all the Indians live in the national territories of the north, Los Andes, Formosa, Chaco and Misiones. The southern territories include a few hundreds each. In the thinly populated northern provinces, a fair portion of the population has some Indian blood, but the more populous provinces have practically no admixture. The number of negroes in the country is negligible.

Granted, I've not read a modern entry on Argentina, and it could be phrased in the same way. But I doubt it.

 

[Tizoc]

The Morning Post, 4th September, 1912:

…will see the sale of the Brazilian warship to Turkey, whose new government has been embarrassed by the impotence of her naval forces in the war with Italy. At 32,000 tons, and equipped with a dozen 14”/45 cal guns,* Sultan Osman I will head the modern navy, and extend the arm of the Sultan across all Turkish dominions.

* The initial plans for the ship which IOTL became HMS Agincourt were not for one with a turret for every day of the week, but a less crazy six turrets, each with twin main guns.

It looks the ship has grown up compared to what become OTL HMS Agincourt... Though personally, I believe, if they decided for 14" ship, it'd have more likely only 5 double gun turrets.

 

[MrP]

It looks the ship has grown up compared to what become OTL HMS Agincourt... Though personally, I believe, if they decided for 14" ship, it'd have more likely only 5 double gun turrets.

Apparently, the 6-turret with 14" layout was the original - though I'm not sure of the layout, I'd presume two fore, two aft and one on either side/centrally. But the Brazilian government had an eleventh-hour change of heart about her layout, resulting in the OTL thing. I should have a look for some sketches of the original layout, really . . .

EDIT: http://www.avalanchepress.com/Battleship_Rio.php

Armstrong’s presented several alternatives, and after some thought the Brazilians chose an enlarged version of Minas Geraes mounting twelve 14-inch guns in the same turret arrangement. She had much improved armor protection, and was faster than the earlier ships at 22 knots. For several months the Brazilians dickered over details, insisting on revisions of her hammock stowage, searchlight suite and boat arrangements. “Some suggestions,” Armstrong’s chief negotiator, Tennyson D’Eyncourt, reported back to his directors, “had been too silly for words.”

 

[Keenir]

Yes, that's it. It was also called "the backbone of steel for the Ottoman empire". Strange that it doesn't go through Ankara.

why would it? Ankara's nickname is "the Village" for a reason.

 

[stevep]

Apparently, the 6-turret with 14" layout was the original - though I'm not sure of the layout, I'd presume two fore, two aft and one on either side/centrally. But the Brazilian government had an eleventh-hour change of heart about her layout, resulting in the OTL thing. I should have a look for some sketches of the original layout, really . . .

EDIT: http://www.avalanchepress.com/Battleship_Rio.php

Mr P

Just checking one of my reference books. The later ordered and never completed Riachuelo, which was meant as an enlarged replacement for the Agincourt was down to have 12x14" in 6 twin turrets. All of those were to be on the centre line so no wing turrets. [Alternative was to be 10x15" again in twin turrets, all centre lined]. It doesn't say anything about Agincourt other than the final design. However since the enlarged successor, ordered because Chile and Argentina had ordered larger ships, was to have 12x14", I rather suspect that any 14" version of Agincourt would have had 10 guns.

Steve

 

[G.Bone]

A very interesting TL if not a bit confusing due to the chatter about WWI history & what not.

Please - continue!

 

[MrP]

Mr P

Just checking one of my reference books. The later ordered and never completed Riachuelo, which was meant as an enlarged replacement for the Agincourt was down to have 12x14" in 6 twin turrets. All of those were to be on the centre line so no wing turrets. [Alternative was to be 10x15" again in twin turrets, all centre lined]. It doesn't say anything about Agincourt other than the final design. However since the enlarged successor, ordered because Chile and Argentina had ordered larger ships, was to have 12x14", I rather suspect that any 14" version of Agincourt would have had 10 guns.

Steve

Have you got Conway's 1906-1921, old boy? There's not anything about the earlier design in the RN section for Agincourt, although if you've got Jane's WWI, there's a mention in the General Notes on p.38:

The history of this ship merits recording in some detail. Four designs were drafted at first for her. That accepted was for a battleship of 32,000 tons, armed with 12-14 inch, 16-6 inch and 14-4 inch guns. The Brazilian government then considered her too large and expensive a unit, and her construction was stopped. A special mission was sent by Armstrongs to Rio de Janeiro, and new outline scheme was prepared in one night. This was the Elswick "Design 690A," as given on this page. In July, 1914, she was sold to Turkey by Brazil for £2,725,000...

I really recommend Conway's, by the way. She's got all sorts in her - 4 different designs for Riachuelo, for example.

A very interesting TL if not a bit confusing due to the chatter about WWI history & what not.

Please - continue!

Cheers, old boy. I've been doing some work on the Balkans while unwillingly separated from t'net. Should have that up in a day or two. Sorry it's a bit confusing.

 

[G.Bone]

It's all right.

I would love to see something of a traditional TL/summary of what's going on, given that the actual segments are somewhat buried in the thread.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

According to Warships for Export, Peter Brook, which uses Armstrong's archives, Rio de Janeiro was originally intended to be a third member of the previous class but was redesigned after the British introduced the 13.5"..

The specs provided are successively 10x14", 12x12", 12x14", 10x12", 8x16" (!), 10x16"(!!) and 8x16" and 6x9.4" (!!!). Apparently some disagreements were in play regarding design philosophy.

Have you got Conway's 1906-1921, old boy? There's not anything about the earlier design in the RN section for Agincourt, although if you've got Jane's WWI, there's a mention in the General Notes on p.38:



I really recommend Conway's, by the way. She's got all sorts in her - 4 different designs for Riachuelo, for example.



Cheers, old boy. I've been doing some work on the Balkans while unwillingly separated from t'net. Should have that up in a day or two. Sorry it's a bit confusing.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

Aren't you using the 1911 Britannica? It's probably better for your period.

http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/

I have a digital copy if you need any articles - some of the online scans are a but garbled.

Ah, I'm just reading the 1951 Encyclopaedia Britannica to get a feel for the style of the period. Wikipedia can't supplant this!

It also has all these archaicisms and interesting kinds of information, for example, on Argentina:



Granted, I've not read a modern entry on Argentina, and it could be phrased in the same way. But I doubt it.

 

[MrP]

According to Warships for Export, Peter Brook, which uses Armstrong's archives, Rio de Janeiro was originally intended to be a third member of the previous class but was redesigned after the British introduced the 13.5"..

The specs provided are successively 10x14", 12x12", 12x14", 10x12", 8x16" (!), 10x16"(!!) and 8x16" and 6x9.4" (!!!). Apparently some disagreements were in play regarding design philosophy.

Damn me! That's brilliant, old boy! A spot of quite British understatement in that last.

Aren't you using the 1911 Britannica? It's probably better for your period.

http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/

I have a digital copy if you need any articles - some of the online scans are a but garbled.

Ooh, cheers, old boy. I shall have to nab some stuff out of there!

I'm using the 1951 is because a) it's the one we have and b) Niall and I've always found it terribly endearing in how it talks about places like Cuba and Iran, which are utterly unrecognisable from the pictures it paints.

I'll be using it for the next update as well, since I'm modelling it on its article covering the Balkan Wars of OTL.

It's all right.

I would love to see something of a traditional TL/summary of what's going on, given that the actual segments are somewhat buried in the thread.

Hm, I'll have a stab at it. It should be practical . . . give me a little while, ok?

 

[Calgacus]

Damn me! That's brilliant, old boy! A spot of quite British understatement in that last.



Ooh, cheers, old boy. I shall have to nab some stuff out of there!

I'm using the 1951 is because a) it's the one we have and b) Niall and I've always found it terribly endearing in how it talks about places like Cuba and Iran, which are utterly unrecognisable from the pictures it paints.

I'll be using it for the next update as well, since I'm modelling it on its article covering the Balkan Wars of OTL.



Hm, I'll have a stab at it. It should be practical . . . give me a little while, ok?

Might be an idea to carry on with the way you're doing it right up to the crisis that provokes war, then post a summary of the major events and some descriptions of the armies mobilised and maps etc etc. That way you won't get sidetracked too much. Just an idea....

 

[MrP]

Might be an idea to carry on with the way you're doing it right up to the crisis that provokes war, then post a summary of the major events and some descriptions of the armies mobilised and maps etc etc. That way you won't get sidetracked too much. Just an idea....

Hm, I quite like that idea.

Sound good, G. Bone?

 

[Thande]

More good work, P...

 

[MrP]

One step nearer the German war, chaps. The Balkans erupt!

Balkan Wars, 1912-13:

This article gives an account of the campaigns of Bulgaria, Serbia, Greece and Montenegro, as allies, against the Ottoman Empire, in 1912 and 1913, and also of the brief struggle that followed between the former allies, with the Ottomans and Romania intervening, in the summer of 1913. When war broke out, all Macedonia, Albania and Epirus still formed part of the Ottoman Empire.

The Balkan League.-Military alliances, directed against the Ottomans, had been adjusted between Bulgaria and Serbia, and between Bulgaria and Greece during the early part of 1912; taking advantage of the distraction created by the Italian invasion of Libya, they resolved to attack. The Ottoman rule of Macedonia served as an excuse for them to order mobilization on Sept. 30 and Oct. 1. War was declared once their armies were on a war footing, and active operations soon followed, Montenegro, which had no formal agreement with the others, actually starting the hostilities.

The Turkish regular forces in Europe at this time comprised 12 divisions of somewhat weak establishment in Thrace, and 12 similar divisions stationed at various points in the extensive Ottoman territories to the west; organization of a sort also existed for about doubling the number of divisions on mobilization; but the actual numbers available during the opening and decisive weeks of the struggle did not exceed about 140,000 combatants in Thrace and a similar number in the western theatres. Large military forces, it is true, existed in Turkey in Asia; but, owing to the activities of the Greek fleet, these could not be transferred to any part of European Turkey other than Thrace.

Opposing these forces, Bulgaria possessed nine very strong regular divisions, numbering about 180,000 combatants, with two strong reserve divisions formed after mobilization. Serbia promptly placed five somewhat weaker regular divisions in the field, making up a total of about 80,000 combatants, with five well-organized reserve divisions ready to follow. Greece could muster four regular divisions of similar size to Ottoman divisions, her forces at the start numbering perhaps 50,000, with four reserve divisions to be set up on mobilization. The Montenegrin Army on the other hand was wholly on a militia basis and quite ill-suited for fighting save among its own mountains or immediately outside its own frontiers. Thus the allies, at the outset, enjoyed a slight advantage in numbers; and because their reserve formations were far better organized, they retained this numerical advantage during the weeks of hostilities that followed. However, problems with available equipment were to make the divisions of later in the conflict substantially less useful...

 

[MrP]

More good work, P...

Cheers, old boy. Hope you enjoy this bit!

I. THE THREE THEATRES OF WAR​

Owing to the geographical situation, there were bound to be three practically distinct main theatres of war when the struggle began, viz: on the Turko-Bulgarian frontier of Thrace, on the frontier between Macedonia and the allied Powers, Bulgaria and Serbia, and on the frontier between Greece and Turkey. Under a military understanding between Bulgaria and Serbia, six of the nine Bulgarian regular divisions were allotted to the eastern theatre of war, while the remaining three co-operated with the Serbian Army in operations directed against Macedonia. However, 4th Army, comprising the divisions allotted to co-operate with the Serbian Army, as it turned out, moved independently toward Salonika. However, the failure of Bulgaria to aid Serbia tended to cause somewhat strained relations between that kingdom and Serbia at the very start.*

Campaign in Thrace.–The Bulgarian staff organized its six regular divisions, destined for Thrace, with the two newly formed reserve divisions, as three armies, the 2nd Army on the right of Maritsa, prepared to move on Adrianople, the 1st Army in the centre more to the east, and the 3rd Army on the left about Yambol, prepared to move on Kirk Killisse. On the declaration of war, on Oct. 17, the three armies advanced and they passed the frontier on the 18th and 19th to the north-west and north of Adrianople, and on the 22nd to the north-west and north of Kirk Killisse.

Adrianople was a great entrenched camp, composed of many forts and works, fairly well-armed; Kirk Killisse was also provided with some works, but they were not of an efficient character. The 2nd Army advanced against Adrianople and to the west of it, with a view to investment, while the 1st Army followed a line more to the east and from the 22nd to the 24th was lightly engaged with the enemy about Seliolu, the battle ending in its victory. On that same day the 3rd Army captured Kirk Killisse, after some severe fighting against recently mobilized and hopelessly outnumbered Turkish troops. The Turkish field forces had earlier formed up about the Ergene; and sensibly remained in that position, although accusations of cowardice were levelled at the commander, Nazim Pasha, by some of his younger officers.

On discovering the absence of the Ottoman field forces in the vicinity of Adrianople and Kirk Killisse, the Bulgarians invested Adrianople with 1st Army, while 2nd and 3rd advanced to the defences of the Turkish Army of Thrace on the Ergene. Severe fighting took place on the 26th, 27th and 28th between the left flank of the Army of Thrace and 2nd Army in which both sides suffered heavily. 3rd Army struck next, and was repulsed at the Battle of Lule Burgas, which saw it first repulsed and then driven back in confusion. The Bulgarian left near Viza was seriously endangered, and because of miscommunication, eventually cut off and compelled to surrender.

As 2nd Army regrouped around Dimotika, and the scattered remnants of 3rd Army fell back in the direction of the border and toward Adrianople, the Turkish commander finally acceded to the demands of his juniors and advanced toward Adrianople, intent on lifting the siege. Pursuing the Bulgarian troops, the Army of Thrace marched toward the Bulgarian border, resting its right flank on Seliolu. On Nov. 7, the Turks attacked the besiegers of Adrianople, and both sides suffered heavy losses during the battle, which continued until the 11th. However, the strategic victory went to the Turks, with the Bulgarians compelled to quit their works and lift the siege.

Despite this strategic victory, the Bulgarians were swiftly bringing their reserves into play, and were again at the numerical at which they had begun the war. However, the failure of their generals to co-ordinate, and the failure of their assaults on the Ergene defences had sapped morale in the army and at home...

* IOTL relations were more strained, because the Bulgarians changed plans at the last minute, and only sent a single division to help the Serbians, and it just marched down to Salonika. ITTL, the original plan is adhered to.

 

[MrP]

A little map of events in Thrace: