Pour le coeur

[Thande]

I have a feeling my cameo is coming up

The hint about historians could suggest one of two things, either Michael fails badly and propaganda circulates about it being an attempted German breakthrough soundly defeated by the heroic Allies, or alternatively it is more successful than the Germans expected and actually manages to inadvertently break through that line.

 

[MrP]

I have a feeling my cameo is coming up

The hint about historians could suggest one of two things, either Michael fails badly and propaganda circulates about it being an attempted German breakthrough soundly defeated by the heroic Allies, or alternatively it is more successful than the Germans expected and actually manages to inadvertently break through that line.

I'm most pleased that I've muddied that sufficiently.

You should be in one of the next two updates.

 

[Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy]

Maybe I should have used insurrectionists or criminals.

The word I saw was "bombist", but that was in the 19th century. By this point "terrorist" may have become fashionable.

 

[perfectgeneral]

Re: Rifle, 0.276, Pattern 1913 Enfield (.303 Pattern 14)

http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=3402

It wasn't just a lack of pre-war production that lead to the Enfield Pattern 1913 not being adopted (although only America had spare production to make the later .303 Pattern 14 based upon it). The high power round was the major fault. It needed further development.

The main problem was still the cartridge. Higher velocities produced higher pressures and temperatures, with the side effects such as "blow backs", extraction problems and metallic fouling of the bore. Development of the new rifle was plagued with these problems and many variations were made to the cartridge design.
During the troop trials, one rifle at Aldershot was severely damaged when the base of the cartridge blew out, and so the firing trials were suspended. This "blow-up" was attributed to "severe pressure". Excessive wear of the bore was complained of even after only 1,000 rounds fired. - Milsurps.com

A more successful departure would have been widespread adoption of the Japanese 6.5mm Arisaka and the Fedorov Avtomat (assault) rifle. The British already had this round in mass production (some 100,000 Japanese Arisaka rifles were bought for the Royal Navy OTL). Exporting the round to Russia (through the Arctic Ocean and/or Black Sea) might have resulted in orders for Federov Automats, made under license. I know it is an old AH cheastnut, but it is at least a fully developed weapon system at this time.

In 1916, the Weapons Committee of the Russian Army made a decision to order no less than 25,000 Fedorov automatic rifles. - wikipeadia

Its recoil-operated action was sensitive to fouling; early production guns suffered from non-interchangeability of parts, including magazines; disassembly and especially re-assembly was somewhat complicated. Despite these flaws, it was a formidable and historically important weapon, and, ironically, its ballistic properties are very close to modern idea of "ideal" assault rifle and its ammunition. - http://world.guns.ru/assault/as86-e.htm

Check out the table comparing the Avtomat to the Stg44 and Ak47.
Also note the picture of a tank armed with two Fedorov Avtomats:
http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_url?doit=done&tt=url&intl=1&fr=bf-home&trurl=http%3A%2F%2Farmor.kiev.ua%2FTanks%2FBeforeWWII%2FMS1%2Ffedorov%2Findex.html&lp=ru_en&btnTrUrl=Translate

 

[MrP]

Cheers, perfectgeneral!

Apologies for the absence of updates of late. Expect some before Monday.

 

[perfectgeneral]

Cheers, perfectgeneral!

Apologies for the absence of updates of late. Expect some before Monday.

That's great news.

Birmingham Small Arms Company (BSA) made the Lewis light machine gun under license as well as the 6.5mm Arisaka round, so manufacture by them would make a lot of sense.

 

[Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy]

So you decided not to go with my idea? It's kind of wanky if the CP doesn't get any advantage.

 

[MrP]

So you decided not to go with my idea? It's kind of wanky if the CP doesn't get any advantage.

Oh, no, I've nabbed that idea. There's been no mass arrest of German agents, so her intel will be considerably better in the long run.

 

[Thande]

So you decided not to go with my idea? It's kind of wanky if the CP doesn't get any advantage.

The CPs have at least one other advantage along with that, P ran with my idea about the Austrians not abandoning their armoured car-cum-tank research in the 1910s.

 

[perfectgeneral]

That's great news.

Birmingham Small Arms Company (BSA) made the Lewis light machine gun under license as well as the 6.5mm Arisaka round, so manufacture by them would make a lot of sense.

I come across as pushing for this departure, but I don't think that Britain liked the idea of Tommy wasting all that ammunition. Russia was into the idea, however the political unrest, that you have butterflied away, prevented production of more than a few thousand of the 25,000 order. Even the initial order was slowed by civil disorder and the collapsing economy. With less instability the 6.5mm Fedorov round may have been put into production, but adopting the 6.5mm Arisaka helps the Avtomat's cause so much that Fedorov may have done so anyway.

 

[Zyzzyva]

I come across as pushing for this departure, but I don't think that Britain liked the idea of Tommy wasting all that ammunition. Russia was into the idea, however the political unrest, that you have butterflied away, prevented production of more than a few thousand of the 25,000 order. Even the initial order was slowed by civil disorder and the collapsing economy. With less instability the 6.5mm Fedorov round may have been put into production, but adopting the 6.5mm Arisaka helps the Avtomat's cause so much that Fedorov may have done so anyway.

Neither did Austria and look where it got them.

Oh, wait... this the the 1914 British Army. They're only half a century behind the times? Good on 'em for moving forward!

 

[MrP]

The CPs have at least one other advantage along with that, P ran with my idea about the Austrians not abandoning their armoured car-cum-tank research in the 1910s.

Aye, don't expect A7Vs ITTL!

Neither did Austria and look where it got them.

Oh, wait... this the the 1914 British Army. They're only half a century behind the times? Good on 'em for moving forward!

It's a logistical concern, in part. To be a bit vague in an example, if a soldier expends twenty rounds during a set period of combat with a rifle, and sixty rounds using an assault rifle, one needs three times as much transport capacity to keep the latter chap supplied. Transport capacity was at a premium, and the more diverted to the infantry means less for the artillery. So one has to find a happy medium.* The fact that senior officers were worried about men "wasting" ammunition tends to obscure this quite a bit, as it's a tactical concern, not a strategic-logistical one, and is inevitably more gripping. The BEF was pretty good, but was hugely hampered by a lack of equipment: grenades** were improvised from tins, trench mortars were improvised from catapults and so on.

Hm, I'm reading too much about the British. I mustn't let TTL go all Anglo-centric.

* Section Lewis guns were the answer IOTL, but that was a gradual progression.
** Proper ones were available, but were the province of the Royal Engineers.

 

[fhaessig]

If this is the first use of gas on the battlefield, it's likely to be, like OTL, from canisters rather than shells; WHich means that the wind has to blow in the right direction ( and be steady ) for gas to be used, as it would be... embarassing to have the wind turn and the weapon go back to the lines of it's originators.

Just BTW, the main wind and weather patterns in that area generally move from west to east.

I can think of an amusing cameo....

 

[MrP]

If this is the first use of gas on the battlefield, it's likely to be, like OTL, from canisters rather than shells; WHich means that the wind has to blow in the right direction ( and be steady ) for gas to be used, as it would be... embarassing to have the wind turn and the weapon go back to the lines of it's originators.

Just BTW, the main wind and weather patterns in that area generally move from west to east.

I can think of an amusing cameo....

Don't tantalise me, man!

 

[perfectgeneral]

Cheers, perfectgeneral!

Apologies for the absence of updates of late. Expect some before Monday.

I feel used and dirty

 

[MrP]

I feel used and dirty

Sorry about that. I've been in a funk all weekend. I'll write some more in a few days, I hope.

 

[Imperator]

What kind of casualties would you say each power has sustained since the war began?

 

[MrP]

What kind of casualties would you say each power has sustained since the war began?

I don't have precise figures, but it's a good question. I'll get back to you soon. I'm slightly distracted atm, as it seems that by blithely delaying the Curragh Incident, I seem to have inadvertently knocked out a lot of the contributory factors to the Easter Rising. e.g. no Kitchener at the War Office = southern Irish units get their own officers, not Protestants imposed by K. And by replacing French, their may not be a Shell Crisis as OTL, so Haldane may stay, despite Northcliffe's dislike of the man (for supposedly being pro-German). All of this messes up Lloyd George's ascendancy, so I'm trying to work out whether he's going to end up being PM (in wartime, at least) at all.

 

[stevep]

I don't have precise figures, but it's a good question. I'll get back to you soon. I'm slightly distracted atm, as it seems that by blithely delaying the Curragh Incident, I seem to have inadvertently knocked out a lot of the contributory factors to the Easter Rising. e.g. no Kitchener at the War Office = southern Irish units get their own officers, not Protestants imposed by K. And by replacing French, their may not be a Shell Crisis as OTL, so Haldane may stay, despite Northcliffe's dislike of the man (for supposedly being pro-German). All of this messes up Lloyd George's ascendancy, so I'm trying to work out whether he's going to end up being PM (in wartime, at least) at all.

MrP

Was French so important in the British shell crisis? I got the impression that all the combatants ran into problems because the conflict consumed munitions, especially shells at a far greater rate than expected and also of course the conflict didn't end quickly as most people were expecting. Remember reading, possibly earlier on this thread, that if the Germans hadn't seized Antwerp and the nitrates stockpiles they would have faced a possibly fatal shortfall before they could get the Haber process into full scale industrial production.

For Britain the situation was probably worse because they were building from a small base while the continental powers were used to producing shells for mass armies. Also there seems from some sources to have been the idea of muddling through and leaving it to the market to supply the needed demand before the government actually intervened to start regulating more closely and setting up factories and production capacity.

Steve

 

[MrP]

MrP

Was French so important in the British shell crisis? I got the impression that all the combatants ran into problems because the conflict consumed munitions, especially shells at a far greater rate than expected and also of course the conflict didn't end quickly as most people were expecting. Remember reading, possibly earlier on this thread, that if the Germans hadn't seized Antwerp and the nitrates stockpiles they would have faced a possibly fatal shortfall before they could get the Haber process into full scale industrial production.

For Britain the situation was probably worse because they were building from a small base while the continental powers were used to producing shells for mass armies. Also there seems from some sources to have been the idea of muddling through and leaving it to the market to supply the needed demand before the government actually intervened to start regulating more closely and setting up factories and production capacity.

Steve

Tbh, the more I read, the less certain I become about the Shell Crisis! According to Wiki, Stephen Koss suggests Churchill is responsible for it. A. J. P. Taylor blames Northcliffe and French. The latter apparently using it as one of many excuses for the failure of Neuve Chapelle. The former as a stick with which to beat Haldane out of office. I'm now stuck with having to do more research before I can even have an opinion! Oy vey!

The Antwerp haul seems to have been in the nature of a handy windfall, but it doesn't appear to have been vital, as i) the Germans got the Haber Process up and running with remarkable alacrity, and ii) their consumption of nitrates was so large that the Antwerp lot only accounts for a brief period of wartime consumption (1-4 months, IIRC).

I wholly agree with your second paragraph. I was unaware how staunchly free market the Liberals were at the time until recently. It seems to have been a significant retarder of growth, not helped by the fact it was a difficult art that'd inevitably see a fair amount of pain in its swift expansion.