Potential Reverse Cold War Timeline w/Pre-1900 PoDs

If you've kept up with my posts, you'll know that I've started a few Reverse Cold War threads; that is, a global standoff that takes place between a communist America and a capitalist Russia. Most of the approaches on this site, at least to me, seem to rely on rather doubtful post-1900 PODs. Free market capitalism is likely too entrenched in American society for a Marxist takeover, for example.

But because I’ve long been interested in the idea and may have found a way to make it work, perhaps I’ll start a Reverse Cold War TL myself, but with PoDs that take place long before 1900. As I’m a novice when it comes to understanding history--both real and alternate--I need your guys’ feedback if I’m to move forward with this undertaking. Maybe this coup is bound to fail, or that military too small to invade wherever. But I don’t know for sure, which is why I ask you, the Alternate History community, for input.

This timeline, for now titled Empires and Unions: The Cold War Reversed, commences with several PoDs that date back to the 18th Century, at most. A far greedier, but (initially) more pragmatic British Empire grants the Thirteen Colonies representation in Parliament and relaxes its mercantilist policies, which prevents the American Revolution from happening as it actually did. They conquer most of North America over the 19th Century, encompassing the combined land occupied by the modern United States and Canada IOTL. Once the Industrial Revolution begins, they intensify their Manifest Destiny-esque exploits. Industrialized slavery, strip mining, unchecked pollution and corporate malpractice proliferate the nearly unfettered capitalism strangling British North America (or BNA) at this time.

When World War One breaks out in 1914, the British double down on their excesses and conscript American colonists en masse to do most of the fighting for them. BNA’s industrial capacity is redirected to fueling the war effort and keeping the decadent British mainland afloat, leaving only scraps for an already oppressed population. Among the millions killed in the Great War are countless BNA colonists. Infuriated at their overseers and inspired by the work of Karl Marx, a socialist American Revolution occurs in 1918. After a bloody civil war against the anti-communist, but disunified Nationalists--many of whom flee to the land occupied by Greenland IOTL--the communists emerge victorious. The United States of America (or US/USA) is born.

The next few PoDs are significantly less fleshed out. Russia and China, both ruled by more competent and opportunistic leaders, open up to free trade and business-friendly policies in the 19th Century. The 1825 Decembrist Revolt succeeds in Russia and a liberally-minded constitutional monarchy is established. China never experiences the Opium Wars (as the British government is preoccupied with North America) or the Taiping Rebellion (Hong Xiuquan falls ill and dies early). To solve what internal problems that it still has, the Asian giant looks towards Great Britain--which happens to be experiencing the Industrial Revolution at this time--for inspiration.

Seeing untold opportunity in Russia and China, vast numbers of British capitalists, inventors and diplomats trade, travel and teach in both nations. They help set up factories, found universities and introduce mechanized labor. Before long, the newly dubbed Twin Titans threaten to outstrip Britain for economic freedom, technological progress and sheer industrial output. Russia abolishes slavery/serfdom in 1861, while China (on paper) follows suit in 1910. Because it’s capably led and thoroughly industrialized by 1914, the former performs far better during World War One than IOTL. China, which has built an oversized navy and domestic arms industry, successfully prevents Japanese invasion and sells munitions to the Entente.

What follows next is very blurry, comparatively unelaborate and especially in need of additional contemplation, but I’ll list some examples for your ability to further critique TTL. At the Great War’s end in 1918, the Twin Titans return to pre-war isolationism and consolidate their newly gained power. With Europe drained by war and America consumed by communism, the two become dominant commercial nations in the midst of the Roaring 20s. Russia and China also form their own “Special Relationship” analogous to that of the OTL US and UK, solidifying their already extensive free trade and intergovernmental collaboration with one another.

The Nazis still come to power in Germany and initiate World War Two, invading and occupying the same nations and implementing their signature policies. They still lose around 1945 due to Russian mobilization and America launching a dedicated “War of liberation” on the Axis Powers in 1941.

Meanwhile, China beats back the Japanese and liberates Korea, preventing it from being divided as it was IOTL. Worried about the US prosecuting its War in the Pacific, the Twin Titans agree to jointly invade the Japanese mainland and deny America its victory. Before they can do so, however, Hiroshima and Nagasaki are obliterated in gargantuan, mushroom-shaped explosions--the products of an unhinged America’s newest superweapon, the atomic bomb.

Russia, now the supreme military power of the world, liberates Northern Europe and implements Marshall Plan-esque rebuilding. With the partitioning of Europe into separate capitalist and communist regions, World War Two ends. Great Britain, dependent on Russo-Sino support and exhausted by the World Wars, has no choice but to decolonize. The next decade or so is characterized by America and the Twin Titans attempting to pick up the pieces. The Cold War has begun.

There’s more that I have in mind, such as an Alaskan War in the 1950s, a Japanese Missile Crisis, the various ancap/ancom territories that emerge, ultra-neoliberal China and a Russia analogous to the OTL United States, among other ideas. However, I lack the wherewithal to execute many of them, even more so than what I’ve written so far. I’ll leave that for the rest of the thread to discuss.

Nonetheless, what do you think of my proposed timeline idea?

Thank you in advance,
Zyobot
 
Last edited:
You wouldn't have the OTL World Wars and Nazis but you could still have an overall similar pattern.

Russia will still want to expand her influence in the Balkans, leading to clash with A-H and Ottomans. Germany will still be among the last to get colonies because they are unified late compared to Britain and France.
France will still dislike German unification and growth and butt heads with Germany about "natural borders".

So you could still have a world war in the beginning of the 20th century with Germany, A-H and OE (and possibly Japan, Sweden, Italy and Spain ITTL to spice things up) on one side, and France, Britain and Russia on the other.

Easy to get those countries on CP side : have the Hasburgs create a principality in Lombardy that then unifies Italy on their own terms, making it an useful ally instead of rival, while France and Italy butt heads over their borders.
Play up Sweden-Russia and Japan-Russia historical enmity. Have Britain and France support Russia during the rivalry and wars with Japan (like the OTL Triple Intervention) and Germany court Japan.
Have Spain keep her Latin American colonies... But with conflicts with Britain (who wants free trade and weaker independent states in SA) and British America (expansionism towards Cuba and Mexico). Plus border rivalry between France and Spain, bad blood from Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars analogue...

And instead of having Russia collapse, you would have Britain collapse with a a revolt of North America, Ireland and possibly India... Britain beaten at sea and strangled, and forced into a Brest-Litovsk analogue (reliquishing African colonies to Germany except Egypt that goes to the Ottomans, reliquishing her influence/colonies in Arabia and Persia to Ottomans, abandoning Malaya to Japan (even if Japan had failed to invade earlier).

But Russia carrying the war to its end, and saving France narrowly. Then, Russia helps France and Britain to recover economically but sets the terms of the peace treaty with Germany and her allies.

Russia being generous force the restoration of British colonies taken by the Germans and Ottomans (Egypt, etc) but also puts the entirety of Balkans and Eastern Europe plus Persia, Afghanistan, Anatolia, Iraq and Near East under her thumb, directly or as puppets. Britain and France given their sorry state have to swallow it.

North America falls into a messy war between French-Speaking Canadians, Mexicans / Hispanics, Blacks, Natives, Southerners, Northerners, Mormons, Communists, Social-Democrats, British loyalists...
Russia, Britain and France jointly intervene to restore order (France and Britain have the navy, Russia the army for that) but ultimately fail.

In the Interwar, Russia is booming economically. However, Russia is also mired in colonial problems (Poland, Anatolia, Persia, Central Asia, Ukraine, Finland, Lithuania, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc) as well as having to prop up clients in Eastern Europe (Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria, Serbia etc) as people there grow unhappy with their governments and the Russian overbearing patron.

Japan keeps control of Filipinos, Malaya, Singapore, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Siam, and paints it as a "Sphere of Coprosperity".

Qing China falls to civil war, as the tensions that bubbled up in the 19th century explode.

While China emulated Britain in her industrial revolution, the priority was the military, to deter Western countries from invading. The second priority was urban infrastructure. So the countryside saw very little of innovation (except for mines and railways to fuel the machine).

Moreover, to get the nobility, mandarins and traders on board, the Qing let them profit from the growth... at the expense of workers rights. This is a planned capitalist economy (very basically, the State sets the goals, but companies follow them and get rich). So peasants are pressured to produce more food (for the cities and export) while seeing nearly no progress and being treated like serfs, while industrial workers lack basic rights. The Qing use religious and ethnic minorities as scapegoats and are turning totalitarian.

WWI causes this edifice to collapse, into civil war.
Russia intervenes again, while Japan sends "volunteers" from the entire Coprosperity Sphere.

India has religious tensions but says united to avoid being (re)colonized by Britain and Russia. The Indian government quietly pushes Muslim hardliners to go fight jihad in Russian Persia and Central Asia so they are someone else's problem.

Then the Great Depression rolls in. There is great turmoil in Russia proper, as millions lose jobs and become homeless, veteran groups as well as far right and far left are agitating... Racial problems, with Asian immigrants and Jews (Think 1930s America OTL). A Hoover-analogue is elected, and wants a "lean state", which doesn't work. Then a Roosevelt-analogue is elected but assassinated by a far-left activist, leading to a "rightist" anticommunist backlash that prevents the New Deal.

With Russia in turmoil, China becomes a Japanese-aligned Maoist state, but Russia keeps Xinjiang, Gansu, Ningxia, Tibet and Mongolia.

At the same time, Romania, Bulgaria, Slovakia and Hungary leave the Russian sphere. Russia has to let them go. Yugoslavia and Greece remain Russian-aligned fearing their neighbors.
While low-level rebellion spreading in all non-Russian territories (from Finland and Poland to Syria, Iraq, Anatolia and Persia to Xinjiang and Mongolia and all the others).

Spain, still holding her Latin American empire (she escaped lightly from WWI thanks to Pyrénées and BNA collapse) watches Communist America with worry... Communist agitation spreads in Spanish America, while Brazil enters civil war.

Being deep in Depression, Russia concentrates her military power in Poland (against rebels and the German threat), in Near East, Middle East and Central Asia (against rebels and Indians) and in Far East. Army is downsized (as much as possible given the situation) and turns into a giant counter-rebellion force, except in Poland. Army quality (in equipment and training) is neglected as well. And Russia proper is virtually undefended.

For while Russians are preoccupied with colonial rebellions, they feel absolutely sure that after WWI, Germans won't attack them again, and even if they try, (supposed) Russian superiority as well as defences in Poland will protect Russia.

Axis = Germany, Italy, Spain, Sweden, India (Subhas Chandra Bose), Sphere of Coprosperity (including Maoist China)

Algeria, Tunisia and Morocco rebel against France in the 1930s. Algerian War of Independence gets so bad that Paris wants to negotiate. Army and Pieds Noirs start a coup (think OTL 1958 coup), which leads to French Civil War (think Spanish War), as far right supports the coup, and Communists become a third side, not to mention nationalist groups in Basque, Brittany and Corsica.

French Civil War becomes WWII as Britain intervenes to support French legitimate government, while Germany, Italy and Spain take advantage of the situation. Russia declares war on Germany, leading Japan and India to declare war on Russia, but other than fighting in Norway and (limited) at the Polish border, there is little fighting. Phony War, as Germany focuses on French and British, while Russia hasn't the stomach for invading Axis Europe. Fighting at borders in Asia as well.

France falls, the BEF is destroyed. French Africa (under military junta) is pro-Axis. Russia focuses on expanding the navy to fight Japan, and prepares an invasion of northern India (to force the country out of the war) and China.

Then, Germany unleashes Blitzkrieg. Russian forces in Poland are not prepared in doctrine, technology and training, they are anihilated, while the bulk of the army is in Asia.

Germany advances fast into Belarus and then Muscovy, virtually undefended, while Romania, Slovakia, Hungary and Bulgaria decide to ensure Russians never return their hegemony on the Balkans by invading underdefended Ukraine as well as besieging Constantinople. While Finland expels Russians and Sweden Army reaches St Petersrburg.

Then, the Russian colossus (with heavy industry spread from Muscovy to Eastern Siberia) wakes up, outnumbering and outproducing Germany and Japan combined in air, sea and ground. Leading to the liberation/conquest of China and South East Asia (being a fortress, invasion of Japan is left for the end), as well as Europe all the way to France (where Russians join up with their British friends).

At the same time, Communist America takes advantage of the situation to invade Spanish America, turning it into a collection of Communist Republics, while Bahian Communists take over Brazil.

Then, America invades Spain with success (as Russians are struggling to liberate Europe from Germans).

Russia ends up nuking India, China and Japan, forcing peace and government change.

Post war, Cold War between Russia and America.

Russia has to grant equality or independence to Poland, Persia, Turkey, etc to keep them on board.

Britain is second fiddle to Russia with some tensions, while France, with Spanish/American threat southwards is a loyal ally (think USA, Britain and France in OTL Cold War but with France being the loyal one and Britain the independent one).

Brazilian-American Split (think Tito-Stalin and Mao-Stalin).
 
You wouldn't have the OTL World Wars and Nazis but you could still have an overall similar pattern.

Russia will still want to expand her influence in the Balkans, leading to clash with A-H and Ottomans. Germany will still be among the last to get colonies because they are unified late compared to Britain and France.
France will still dislike German unification and growth and butt heads with Germany about "natural borders".

So you could still have a world war in the beginning of the 20th century with Germany, A-H and OE (and possibly Japan, Sweden, Italy and Spain ITTL to spice things up) on one side, and France, Britain and Russia on the other.

Easy to get those countries on CP side : have the Hasburgs create a principality in Lombardy that then unifies Italy on their own terms, making it an useful ally instead of rival, while France and Italy butt heads over their borders.
Play up Sweden-Russia and Japan-Russia historical enmity. Have Britain and France support Russia during the rivalry and wars with Japan (like the OTL Triple Intervention) and Germany court Japan.
Have Spain keep her Latin American colonies... But with conflicts with Britain (who wants free trade and weaker independent states in SA) and British America (expansionism towards Cuba and Mexico). Plus border rivalry between France and Spain, bad blood from Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars analogue...

And instead of having Russia collapse, you would have Britain collapse with a a revolt of North America, Ireland and possibly India... Britain beaten at sea and strangled, and forced into a Brest-Litovsk analogue (reliquishing African colonies to Germany except Egypt that goes to the Ottomans, reliquishing her influence/colonies in Arabia and Persia to Ottomans, abandoning Malaya to Japan (even if Japan had failed to invade earlier).

But Russia carrying the war to its end, and saving France narrowly. Then, Russia helps France and Britain to recover economically but sets the terms of the peace treaty with Germany and her allies.

Russia being generous force the restoration of British colonies taken by the Germans and Ottomans (Egypt, etc) but also puts the entirety of Balkans and Eastern Europe plus Persia, Afghanistan, Anatolia, Iraq and Near East under her thumb, directly or as puppets. Britain and France given their sorry state have to swallow it.

North America falls into a messy war between French-Speaking Canadians, Mexicans / Hispanics, Blacks, Natives, Southerners, Northerners, Mormons, Communists, Social-Democrats, British loyalists...
Russia, Britain and France jointly intervene to restore order (France and Britain have the navy, Russia the army for that) but ultimately fail.

In the Interwar, Russia is booming economically. However, Russia is also mired in colonial problems (Poland, Anatolia, Persia, Central Asia, Ukraine, Finland, Lithuania, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc) as well as having to prop up clients in Eastern Europe (Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria, Serbia etc) as people there grow unhappy with their governments and the Russian overbearing patron.

Japan keeps control of Filipinos, Malaya, Singapore, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Siam, and paints it as a "Sphere of Coprosperity".

Qing China falls to civil war, as the tensions that bubbled up in the 19th century explode.

While China emulated Britain in her industrial revolution, the priority was the military, to deter Western countries from invading. The second priority was urban infrastructure. So the countryside saw very little of innovation (except for mines and railways to fuel the machine).

Moreover, to get the nobility, mandarins and traders on board, the Qing let them profit from the growth... at the expense of workers rights. This is a planned capitalist economy (very basically, the State sets the goals, but companies follow them and get rich). So peasants are pressured to produce more food (for the cities and export) while seeing nearly no progress and being treated like serfs, while industrial workers lack basic rights. The Qing use religious and ethnic minorities as scapegoats and are turning totalitarian.

WWI causes this edifice to collapse, into civil war.
Russia intervenes again, while Japan sends "volunteers" from the entire Coprosperity Sphere.

India has religious tensions but says united to avoid being (re)colonized by Britain and Russia. The Indian government quietly pushes Muslim hardliners to go fight jihad in Russian Persia and Central Asia so they are someone else's problem.

Then the Great Depression rolls in. There is great turmoil in Russia proper, as millions lose jobs and become homeless, veteran groups as well as far right and far left are agitating... Racial problems, with Asian immigrants and Jews (Think 1930s America OTL). A Hoover-analogue is elected, and wants a "lean state", which doesn't work. Then a Roosevelt-analogue is elected but assassinated by a far-left activist, leading to a "rightist" anticommunist backlash that prevents the New Deal.

With Russia in turmoil, China becomes a Japanese-aligned Maoist state, but Russia keeps Xinjiang, Gansu, Ningxia, Tibet and Mongolia.

At the same time, Romania, Bulgaria, Slovakia and Hungary leave the Russian sphere. Russia has to let them go. Yugoslavia and Greece remain Russian-aligned fearing their neighbors.
While low-level rebellion spreading in all non-Russian territories (from Finland and Poland to Syria, Iraq, Anatolia and Persia to Xinjiang and Mongolia and all the others).

Spain, still holding her Latin American empire (she escaped lightly from WWI thanks to Pyrénées and BNA collapse) watches Communist America with worry... Communist agitation spreads in Spanish America, while Brazil enters civil war.

Being deep in Depression, Russia concentrates her military power in Poland (against rebels and the German threat), in Near East, Middle East and Central Asia (against rebels and Indians) and in Far East. Army is downsized (as much as possible given the situation) and turns into a giant counter-rebellion force, except in Poland. Army quality (in equipment and training) is neglected as well. And Russia proper is virtually undefended.

For while Russians are preoccupied with colonial rebellions, they feel absolutely sure that after WWI, Germans won't attack them again, and even if they try, (supposed) Russian superiority as well as defences in Poland will protect Russia.

Axis = Germany, Italy, Spain, Sweden, India (Subhas Chandra Bose), Sphere of Coprosperity (including Maoist China)

Algeria, Tunisia and Morocco rebel against France in the 1930s. Algerian War of Independence gets so bad that Paris wants to negotiate. Army and Pieds Noirs start a coup (think OTL 1958 coup), which leads to French Civil War (think Spanish War), as far right supports the coup, and Communists become a third side, not to mention nationalist groups in Basque, Brittany and Corsica.

French Civil War becomes WWII as Britain intervenes to support French legitimate government, while Germany, Italy and Spain take advantage of the situation. Russia declares war on Germany, leading Japan and India to declare war on Russia, but other than fighting in Norway and (limited) at the Polish border, there is little fighting. Phony War, as Germany focuses on French and British, while Russia hasn't the stomach for invading Axis Europe. Fighting at borders in Asia as well.

France falls, the BEF is destroyed. French Africa (under military junta) is pro-Axis. Russia focuses on expanding the navy to fight Japan, and prepares an invasion of northern India (to force the country out of the war) and China.

Then, Germany unleashes Blitzkrieg. Russian forces in Poland are not prepared in doctrine, technology and training, they are anihilated, while the bulk of the army is in Asia.

Germany advances fast into Belarus and then Muscovy, virtually undefended, while Romania, Slovakia, Hungary and Bulgaria decide to ensure Russians never return their hegemony on the Balkans by invading underdefended Ukraine as well as besieging Constantinople. While Finland expels Russians and Sweden Army reaches St Petersrburg.

Then, the Russian colossus (with heavy industry spread from Muscovy to Eastern Siberia) wakes up, outnumbering and outproducing Germany and Japan combined in air, sea and ground. Leading to the liberation/conquest of China and South East Asia (being a fortress, invasion of Japan is left for the end), as well as Europe all the way to France (where Russians join up with their British friends).

At the same time, Communist America takes advantage of the situation to invade Spanish America, turning it into a collection of Communist Republics, while Bahian Communists take over Brazil.

Then, America invades Spain with success (as Russians are struggling to liberate Europe from Germans).

Russia ends up nuking India, China and Japan, forcing peace and government change.

Post war, Cold War between Russia and America.

Russia has to grant equality or independence to Poland, Persia, Turkey, etc to keep them on board.

Britain is second fiddle to Russia with some tensions, while France, with Spanish/American threat southwards is a loyal ally (think USA, Britain and France in OTL Cold War but with France being the loyal one and Britain the independent one).

Brazilian-American Split (think Tito-Stalin and Mao-Stalin).

Thank you for the response. You’ve certainly written a different scenario than what I imagined would be written.

I admit that a lot of what I originally wrote, if not ASB, definitely pushes the envelope and relies on a unique level of chance. While I’m not exceedingly knowledgeable, I don’t see why my timeline couldn’t happen.

For example, why couldn’t I get a more-or-less equivalent Nazi Germany in this scenario (albeit probably less hostile towards the non-communist Slavs)? Unless some PoD causes this guy to travel to another country, where he achieves this and therefore changes the world forever or something (which is entirely possible). I acknowledge that events don't happen in a vacuum.

With the exception of certain events (i.e. Commie USA invents atomic bomb first, not the uber-capitalist Twin Titans), I also want this Reverse Cold War TL to parallel OTL. While the job I did regarding this may be up for debate, why I went out of my way to make Empires and Unions a mirror-verse is still clear, I think.

But again, thank you for your input. I'll certainly have to keep it in mind as I move further with this TL.
 
Last edited:
Top