Potential British colonies

[JD180]

IMO it doesn’t take an ASB effort for the British to colonise Patagonia and the northern regions of what is today Argentina starting in 1809. Some argue that they couldn’t realistically populate it, I’d argue they easily could (without impacting migration to SA, AUS and NZ) by handling the Irish famine better, diverting some migration away from the US, maintaining high early 19th century birth rates or even pushing for a higher degree of migration. The Brits could even recruit some of their most easily assimalable Saxons from Hanover and other regions of Germany.

Other than this, Dutch East Indies which was mentioned before nearly happened during the Napoleonic wars , it’d be interesting if Britain aligned with a southern chinese uprising or at least form some sort of friendlier relationship with the Chinese, which could lead to a higher than our TL chinese migration to a united Malay/Dutch East indies colony which obviously includes Singapore. Mixed with a more substantial Indian migration to this East Indies colony along with a reasonable British infrastructure policy and governing framework, you might see a Singapore on steroids which could lead to some pretty interesting ATLs

 

[Masked Grizzly]

IMO it doesn’t take an ASB effort for the British to colonise Patagonia and the northern regions of what is today Argentina starting in 1809. Some argue that they couldn’t realistically populate it, I’d argue they easily could (without impacting migration to SA, AUS and NZ) by handling the Irish famine better, diverting some migration away from the US, maintaining high early 19th century birth rates or even pushing for a higher degree of migration. The Brits could even recruit some of their most easily assimalable Saxons from Hanover and other regions of Germany.

Other than this, Dutch East Indies which was mentioned before nearly happened during the Napoleonic wars , it’d be interesting if Britain aligned with a southern chinese uprising or at least form some sort of friendlier relationship with the Chinese, which could lead to a higher than our TL chinese migration to a united Malay/Dutch East indies colony which obviously includes Singapore. Mixed with a more substantial Indian migration to this East Indies colony along with a reasonable British infrastructure policy and governing framework, you might see a Singapore on steroids which could lead to some pretty interesting ATLs

One fascinating aspect about the British taking most if not all the Dutch East Indies in ATL (aside from the prospect of a unified New Guinea), would be if feasible the Chinese (and Indians to a lesser extent) pretty much swamping much of the Malay Archipelago* to the point where a screwed ATL Malay/Indonesian state is mainly composed of just the OTL Malay part of the Malay Peninsula, Sumatra and Java.

* - Aside from Singapore, envision the ATL Chinese and Indians managing to become a majority in places like Borneo, Sulawesi, Moluccas and most islands east of Bali to the point where they basically establish a wanked Singapore meets Taiwan.

Also interested to know how much further Singapore could have been expanded to and whether it would have been a benefit compared to OTL?

 

[JD180]

One fascinating aspect about the British taking most if not all the Dutch East Indies in ATL (aside from the prospect of a unified New Guinea), would be if feasible the Chinese (and Indians to a lesser extent) pretty much swamping much of the Malay Archipelago* to the point where a screwed ATL Malay/Indonesian state is mainly composed of just the OTL Malay part of the Malay Peninsula, Sumatra and Java.

* - Aside from Singapore, envision the ATL Chinese and Indians managing to become a majority in places like Borneo, Sulawesi, Moluccas and most islands east of Bali to the point where they basically establish a wanked Singapore meets Taiwan.

Also interested to know how much further Singapore could have been expanded to and whether it would have been a benefit compared to OTL?

I’d imagine a united New Guinea would be separated from an ATL united Malay/Indonesian State. Unfortunately this is where the excitement would end in terms of New Guinea. Having been there 20 years ago, the island can be separated into two regions - the fertile highlands which for all its crop fertility is even to this day is almost impossible to have any functional infrastructure network - even now many communities are accessible only by plain or chopper. Then you have the lowlands, which aren’t fertile and is mostly a flooded wetland that creates a fertile breeding ground for Malaria more than anything else.

Once you somehow get past this, you get to the people. Unlike Australia, New Guinea was much more populated at the turn of the 19th century. Let me share an anecdote on the Papuans, I’m not afraid to admit that when I went there to play footy it is the only time I ever overplayed an injury just to sit on the bench. These guys make other Pacific Islanders look like big teddy bears. I had more bruises after a half an hour than I ever did against anyone else.

These Papuans are the same guys who’s grandfathers had relatively little qualms about facing Japanese machine Guns and risk life and limb to help the Australians time and time again for little reward, not that they ever wanted one. I almost feel sorry for any would be nations who attempted large scale colonisation of the island. If the locals didn’t kill you and eat you, the malaria would. I have a lot of respect for the islands people and it is a stunning backtrop of beautiful rainforests mixed with a real islander feel coastal setting. Unfortunately even my brother in law would admit that today the country is a basket case. Step foot outside your hotel zone and you could very easily find yourself in trouble, and their views on women isn’t exactly winning any awards.

 

[Masked Grizzly]

I’d imagine a united New Guinea would be separated from an ATL united Malay/Indonesian State. Unfortunately this is where the excitement would end in terms of New Guinea. Having been there 20 years ago, the island can be separated into two regions - the fertile highlands which for all its crop fertility is even to this day is almost impossible to have any functional infrastructure network - even now many communities are accessible only by plain or chopper. Then you have the lowlands, which aren’t fertile and is mostly a flooded wetland that creates a fertile breeding ground for Malaria more than anything else.

Once you somehow get past this, you get to the people. Unlike Australia, New Guinea was much more populated at the turn of the 19th century. Let me share an anecdote on the Papuans, I’m not afraid to admit that when I went there to play footy it is the only time I ever overplayed an injury just to sit on the bench. These guys make other Pacific Islanders look like big teddy bears. I had more bruises after a half an hour than I ever did against anyone else.

These Papuans are the same guys who’s grandfathers had relatively little qualms about facing Japanese machine Guns and risk life and limb to help the Australians time and time again for little reward, not that they ever wanted one. I almost feel sorry for any would be nations who attempted large scale colonisation of the island. If the locals didn’t kill you and eat you, the malaria would. I have a lot of respect for the islands people and it is a stunning backtrop of beautiful rainforests mixed with a real islander feel coastal setting. Unfortunately even my brother in law would admit that today the country is a basket case. Step foot outside your hotel zone and you could very easily find yourself in trouble, and their views on women isn’t exactly winning any awards.

Short of earlier PODs (via past ATL threads that have the Iatmul basically managing to establish a tropical Indianized Japan-like analogue civilisation at Sepik which eventually unified the island, with the Winged Bean being the founder crop of the island and trade with the likes of the Sa Huynh allowing for the introduction of animals such as the Swamp Buffalo). That would be the minimum expected compared to the OTL where half the island is part of Indonesia.

 

[xsampa]

Turkey as a British protectorate due to an earlier Ottoman collapse?

 

[JD180]

Short of earlier PODs (via past ATL threads that have the Iatmul basically managing to establish a tropical Indianized Japan-like analogue civilisation at Sepik which eventually unified the island, with the Winged Bean being the founder crop of the island and trade with the likes of the Sa Huynh allowing for the introduction of animals such as the Swamp Buffalo). That would be the minimum expected compared to the OTL where half the island is part of Indonesia.

A New Guinea ATL where it fares significantly better than OTL, say with a gdp per capita of about between 15-20 thousand, even with everything I mentioned, would not be impossible. Hard, but not impossible. I might even take a crack at it over the weekend.

 

[JD180]

One fascinating aspect about the British taking most if not all the Dutch East Indies in ATL (aside from the prospect of a unified New Guinea), would be if feasible the Chinese (and Indians to a lesser extent) pretty much swamping much of the Malay Archipelago* to the point where a screwed ATL Malay/Indonesian state is mainly composed of just the OTL Malay part of the Malay Peninsula, Sumatra and Java.

* - Aside from Singapore, envision the ATL Chinese and Indians managing to become a majority in places like Borneo, Sulawesi, Moluccas and most islands east of Bali to the point where they basically establish a wanked Singapore meets Taiwan.

Also interested to know how much further Singapore could have been expanded to and whether it would have been a benefit compared to OTL?

What do you mean by expanded. Asking out of interest not incivility

In terms of influence, in comparison to OTL it could definitely be more politically and culturally significant, yet at the same time be less economically significant (but still at a very high standard)

 

[HARRY]

I guess if Britain can get control of New Orleans either while it is Napoleonic possession, prevent the Louisiana Purchase or beat the Americans for it in the war of 1812 then the could control the Mississippi effectively keeping the US to the east of it. If there is a Texas it would then become a British Protectorate not a state, the same with California and the Pacific North West would be great British Columbia. If there a Crimean War or any war against Russia the west coast British colonies would patriotically liberate Alaska whether the mother country wanted it or not much like Australia grabbing German Pacific territories at the start of WWI.

 

[JD180]

In hindsight, trading Upper and Lower Canada for the the entirety of the Oregon county, in combination with an understanding of future British influence in Alta California (at the time still held by the Spanish) would be a blessing in disguise, particularity come 1849. There might even be more of an opportunity to develop a more distinct culture compared to OTL given the rocky mountains continental divide and transportation limitations of the time. I'm thinking trade with British interests in Asia and Oceania could also be beneficial

 

[Masked Grizzly]

What do you mean by expanded. Asking out of interest not incivility

In terms of influence, in comparison to OTL it could definitely be more politically and culturally significant, yet at the same time be less economically significant (but still at a very high standard)

It stems from the following past threads relating to Singapore (here, here and here) though seem to recall it appearing in other threads.

 

[Deleted member 143920]

One fascinating aspect about the British taking most if not all the Dutch East Indies in ATL (aside from the prospect of a unified New Guinea), would be if feasible the Chinese (and Indians to a lesser extent) pretty much swamping much of the Malay Archipelago* to the point where a screwed ATL Malay/Indonesian state is mainly composed of just the OTL Malay part of the Malay Peninsula, Sumatra and Java.

* - Aside from Singapore, envision the ATL Chinese and Indians managing to become a majority in places like Borneo, Sulawesi, Moluccas and most islands east of Bali to the point where they basically establish a wanked Singapore meets Taiwan.

Also interested to know how much further Singapore could have been expanded to and whether it would have been a benefit compared to OTL?

I would imagine that south east asia would be like the 'latin America of Asia'. It would also provide a lot wealth for Britain and trade would increase with china in an ATL. This could result in a larger opium war(s) and maybe a partition of china?

 

[Masked Grizzly]

I would imagine that south east asia would be like the 'latin America of Asia'. It would also provide a lot wealth for Britain and trade would increase with china in an ATL. This could result in a larger opium war(s) and maybe a partition of china?

Via an earlier POD envision the British taking/conquering a surviving Kingdom of Formosa before the Qing begin to view the territory as a part China rather than a place of piracey, dissidents and headhunters. Being permanantly detached from China in this ATL, British Formosa becomes a large Singapore / Hong Kong with significant European settlement almost reminiscent of Australia and New Zealand.

Had an earlier or on-time Xinhai Revolution happened where Post-Qing China basically becomes a constitutional monarchy, could see the British proposing Ming descendants as their alternative to the Duke of Yansheng (aka Later Yin Dynasty) to replace the Qing in return for China permanently ceding any claims over Formosa (amongst other things).

Another would be the Chinese (and Indian) parts of Southeast Asia / Malay Archipelago forming a state resembling enlarged Singapore meets Taiwan / Hong Kong (derived from an ATL wanked/revival of the Lanfang Republic, which separates from the ATL Indonesian/Malay state possibly in a similar manner to the OTL partition of British India into India and Pakistan (as the Chinese and other minorities would not want to be subject to discrimination and racism like in OTL Indonesia and Malaysia).

 

[Deleted member 143920]

Could Britain have annexed Hawaii after the paulet affair in 1843? We discussed this previously but not in detail