Post WWI Bavaria Poll (read first post before voting)

Which choice on the status of Bavaria will get the most votes?


  • Total voters
    38
  • Poll closed .

Glen

Moderator
Susano said:
Oh, Bavariaalways had a fair share of regionalism, that is true. But the only way they would vote for independance is if the results of Versailles where already published. That regionalism after all did not translate into seccesionism.

Well, at the end of WWI it appears that it did result in seccessionism. Whether this was just a political minority in power or represented the will of a plurality is unclear. Given that they both did break away (albeit briefly) and did have strong regionalism, I think there is a reasonable possibility for at least a plurality to support this.

The Austrian variant would be a possibility, but seeing that most Austrians wanted to join Germany, too, and that thus the Austrian Republic was seen as a tenporary affair at best, and an unatural state of affairs at worst, it woldnt be very popular with the Bavarians in that situation, either.

Unless those Bavarians felt it would put them in a stronger bargaining position with Berlin to be in union with Austria for the grand unification. Bavaria and Austria would make a strong Catholic Southern block.

No, theres absolutely no reason why Bavaria should NOT decide to stay with Germany.

Except that it did break with Germany, and didn't go back until the Freicorps rolled in. So really in the end, the question is, absent the Freicorps, why would they return to Germany?
 

Susano

Banned
You refer to the "Socialist Sovjet Republic" in Bavaria? As ha sbeen pointed out, that one hardly had a mandate of the people, so it would not be mirrored in a referendum. As the nature of the uprising shwos (sovjet socialism), it was more of a politcial statement then a regional seccesion. What matetred where the ideology, not Bavaria.
 

Glen

Moderator
Susano said:
You refer to the "Socialist Sovjet Republic" in Bavaria? As ha sbeen pointed out, that one hardly had a mandate of the people, so it would not be mirrored in a referendum. As the nature of the uprising shwos (sovjet socialism), it was more of a politcial statement then a regional seccesion. What matetred where the ideology, not Bavaria.

Well, it is not clear to me that the 'Socialist Soviet Republic' part occurred until a while after the assassination of Eisner. The Bavarian Republic was declared in November 1918. They actually had elections in February 1919, which the Bavarian Folks' Party won, hardly a Soviet Socialist Republic so far. So we have more of a nascent democratic republic from November 1918 to February 1919. If that trajectory were fostered and protected by the Entente powers (as a way to weaken Germany overall, I know) that might be a more acceptable independence to the people of Bavaria.
 
Glen Finney said:
Yep, that's true. Another route I could see is the Bavarians and Austrians forming some Clerical Fascist union, probably with support from Mussolini. Mussolini at the same time would probably also push for them to be against the liberal North, not wanting them to be favorably disposed to uniting.

I'd not thought of it like that, that's a good point. I do sense though that Clerical Fascism could not reconcile with Mussolini until after the Lateran Treaty with the Pope. And what happens to the South Tyrol is another big question which could prevent Austria working with Italy more closely-but it could be resolved, I'm sure.
 
It would stay with Germany. The independence movement was unsupported, and I don't see why they'd choose Austria over Germany.

I don't even see why we want this to happen anyway, seeing as it will just make the Germans angrier...
 
Susano said:
Oh, Bavariaalways had a fair share of regionalism, that is true. But the only way they would vote for independance is if the results of Versailles where already published. That regionalism after all did not translate into seccesionism.

The Austrian variant would be a possibility, but seeing that most Austrians wanted to join Germany, too, and that thus the Austrian Republic was seen as a tenporary affair at best, and an unatural state of affairs at worst, it woldnt be very popular with the Bavarians in that situation, either.

No, theres absolutely no reason why Bavaria should NOT decide to stay with Germany.
At the first post-war Austrian elections in February 1919, the socialists got 72 seats, the agrarian-conservatives 69, and the nationalists (pan-Germans) 26: it hardly looks an overwhelming majority for joining Germany.
 
SteveW said:
On a more serious note-an independent Bavaria might well have guaranteed Weimar's survival. The removal of a large Land, leaning towards conservatism if not Clerical Fascism, would have resulted in an almost perpetual SPD-DVP coalition in the Reichstag, the Zentrumpartei reduced to Baden-Wuerttemburg and the Rhineland and other Catholic areas. In the long run, of course, Hitler would never rise to take control of the German government and army, and Nazism would probably never really leave Bavaria.


I beg differ: One of IMO most important structural flaws in the Weimar constitution was it´s insistence on centralisation, concentrating power in the hands of the Reichstag, with it´s inclination to political carneval- I think in this period Kaiser Wilhelms word about "Reichs Ape House" has more than a grain of truth.
The state governments, otoh, mostly produced stable governments, without spectacular incidents. In the south and south west, they could also look back on a long history of parliamentarism, so I conclude they are much better prepared for the experiment of democracy than Berlin.
So without that strong voice for a federal order, even more power goes up.

Also, the Zentrum was the most stable party in Weimar times- the Bavarians broke off because of Matthias Erzberger´s financial reforms, so if one could imagine a successful "System Weimar", it "must" incorporate the Zentrum, not exclude it, as in the spirit of irresponsibility dominating Berlin politics, only SPD and Zentrum have such a base of "granted voters" they could weather political storms.
 

Glen

Moderator
Ah, a close vote, but most people of the time thought it would stay with Weimar, interestingly enough.
 
Count the hanging chads and provisional ballots. Bavaria forever!

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