Post WW2 - How would you invade the UK?

(Assuming events are not taking place in the immediate post WW2 period when the UK did not have nuclear weapons, but in this period a number of the big players are at least still recovering from or digesting their gains from WW2, and may not be motivated to try and start something.)

I take your general point. However, it is possible (perhaps unlikely but possible) that we may have Mr Corbyn in No.10 in the near future. He has clearly expressed his desire to do away with our deterrent. Is it that unlikely that a person of similar fruitcakey persuasions could have occupied No.10 at some point in the past? A UK without nuclear weapons is a different beast to one with them.
 

Deleted member 94680

I take your general point. However, it is possible (perhaps unlikely but possible) that we may have Mr Corbyn in No.10 in the near future. He has clearly expressed his desire to do away with our deterrent. Is it that unlikely that a person of similar fruitcakey persuasions could have occupied No.10 at some point in the past? A UK without nuclear weapons is a different beast to one with them.

ATL changes aside, I believe, yes it is. I don’t think anyone with a reasonable chance of gaining No. 10 would have done away with the nuclear deterrent. It may have taken different forms (more or less V-bombers, different aircraft to the V-bombers, different missiles for the submarines, different bombs with different yeilds, whatever) but I doubt it would have been removed in the Cold War era.
 
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Ok so going with current levels (and I'm not sure it changes much at any time post WW2) the problem is there's only really three possible invaders:

1). the US, in which case they just muscle it even invading over 3000 miles (or going via Iceland or what have you). If we saying no nukes, the RN & RAF will inflict damage but will ultimately be trashed, the Army will try to meet the US amphibious assault as it's just not possible to keep a landing secret any more. That still won't be easy, but US air supremacy and off shore bombardment via Cruise missile etc will destroy the army wherever it masses meaning they won't be around long to do so. Long term best bet for the army is to get out of uniform cache weapons and help the inevitable insurgency. If Nukes are used, the UK doesn't have to wait until the US are ashore to use them. Instead nuking any invasion fleet (or in fact the US) both will IMO cause the US to retaliate with nukes although possibly less of them in the case of the former than the latter. There is a practical question about whether the US can find and neutralize the UK nuclear subs preventing this. I've heard stories either way about this, but I suspect it will not be easy, and will be harder in a situation were US/UK tensions are bad enough to make this scenario likely.


2). The Russians, as described already in the thread, there's no way this doesn't involve NATO so it all goes nuclear before they get here. If somehow NATO and MAD are off the table Russia lacks the naval assets to ship enough stuff over to the UK to land and invade and win. The UK is on the wrong side of Europe for them to really bring their superior sized air force numbers to bare, having to rely on their one aircraft carrier. My gut instinct is any Russian troops that do land will be in low enough numbers to be repulsed, the RAF and RN will be able to see off the bits of their counter parts that are in a position to engage them. The biggest issue is Russia can't maintain this kind of long range resource use. Their conventional strength is getting to you by upteen thousand tanks and BMPs ploughing through everyone in between you and them, not by going around or over intervening territory.


3). Some combination of European countries. No single european country can do this, not even France that is in the best position and has the best navy on the continent. Given the close proximity of the French/UK navies and air forces, it's going to be ugly though! The French well manage some landings* but can't get enough army on to UK shores and what ever does land get's beaten back by the UK army. If it goes nuclear the UK and France basically trash each other, although maybe not to quite MAD levels of destruction.

So OK maybe some new anti British European alliance**, say Germany, France and Italy. Yeah OK that's a bit different. Given enough time Three big European economies can build up enough forces to make more of go of it against an isolated UK, of course the UK can build up too and since it's on the defensive and over water that gives a big advantage. It could work but it's going to be costly. This last one has I think the most possibility for a fun story though?



On the rest of the world, China is too far away and unable to project it's particular military strengths (lots of men/tanks) over seas, everyone else is too far away, not powerful enough and not configured for large scale amphibious invasions with naval and long range air support.






*also some paratroopers of course, but again they don't have enough air lift to land that many, and they'll be dodging Rapiers


**how this comes about is going to be key of course!
 
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ATL changes aside, I believe, yes it is. I don’t think anyone with a reasonable chance of gaining No. 10 would have done away with the nuclear deterrent. It may have taken different forms (more or less V-bombers, different aircraft to the V-bombers, different missiles for the submarines, different bombs with different yeilds, whatever) but I doubt it would have been removed in the Cold War era.

Yep, I'm not sure that even if Corbyn wins the next one he's going to be able to remove it. (Without straying too into the British politics thread, I think to get into power he's going to be have to compromise on a lot of things he wants). Either way definitely not any likely UK PM/Govt during the Cold war!
 
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1). the US, in which case they just muscle it even invading over 3000 miles (or going via Iceland or what have you). If we saying no nukes, the RN & RAF will inflict damage but will ultimately be trashed, the Army will try to meet the US amphibious assault as it's just not possible to keep a landing secret any more. That still won't be easy, but US air supremacy and off shore bombardment via Cruise missile etc will destroy the army wherever it masses meaning they won't be around long to do so. Long term best bet for the army is to get out of uniform cache weapons and help the inevitable insurgency. If Nukes are used, the UK doesn't have to wait until the US are ashore to use them. Instead nuking any invasion fleet (or in fact the US) both will IMO cause the US to retaliate with nukes although possibly less of them in the case of the former than the latter. There is a practical question about whether the US can find and neutralize the UK nuclear subs preventing this. I've heard stories either way about this, but I suspect it will not be easy, and will be harder in a situation were US/UK tensions are bad enough to make this scenario likely.

No chance. The Americans have too far to travel and will need too many of their carriers, not to mention assault ships for this to work. Between the RAF and the RN they'll be able to inflict enough damage to ensure any landing is insufficient enough to be beaten back into the sea.

Worst case scenario, the USN fleet is nuked at sea.

For Britain to be invaded it'd take a European alliance or someone to be dominant over Europe.
 
No chance. The Americans have too far to travel and will need too many of their carriers, not to mention assault ships for this to work. Between the RAF and the RN they'll be able to inflict enough damage to ensure any landing is insufficient enough to be beaten back into the sea.

Worst case scenario, the USN fleet is nuked at sea.

For Britain to be invaded it'd take a European alliance or someone to be dominant over Europe.

I agree with a nuked invasion fleet (but the OP said no Nukes). Conventionally I think the USN beats the RN, and the USAF (and Naval air wing etc) will stop* the RAF enough to allow an invasion. (and once parked off the coast can contest UK airspace). For the actual invasion the USN and USMC has a lot of sealift. And once they have the USN and air force supporting them there's not really much the UK Army can do to stop them even as they conveyor over long distance.


* a point of comparison in 2017 the RAF had in total just under 200 combat fighters. The USAF alone had over 2,000 in 2012. Obviously the US can't apply all of it's huge numbers, but given multiple carriers and potential nearer air bases it can project enough of them.

then you get into stuff like 20+ guided missile cruisers
 
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Nick P

Donor
Have you read All Our Tomorrows by Ted Allbeury?

It's the early 80's. Britain has left NATO, abandoned nuclear weapons and declared neutrality. It is still the sick man of Europe and has quit the EEC. The borders are closed to all traffic. The unions hold the country to ransom and nobody is working. The Labour Government are lame ducks. Major riots cripple the country and the Police are increasingly powerless. Even the British Army cannot help.
The Soviet Union "persuade" the Prime Minister to invite them in to provide security and stability. They arrive by airlift into Heathrow Airport and by sea into the ports.

Or there's Golgotha by John Gardner.
The USSR smashes its way through Europe. The USA has left NATO and cannot help. The Red Army stands on the Channel in France. Britain surrenders rather be utterly destroyed like Germany in nuclear attacks.
Long time since I read it but IIRC there were also some political shenanigans and a weak Prime Minister.
 
The USSR smashes its way through Europe. The USA has left NATO and cannot help. The Red Army stands on the Channel in France. Britain surrenders rather be utterly destroyed like Germany in nuclear attacks.
Long time since I read it but IIRC there were also some political shenanigans and a weak Prime Minister.

So uh... did England forget it has its own nuclear arsenal MORE then capable of making any attempt at invading not remotely worth it by the Soviets? I somehow doubt raising a flag over London is worth Minsk, Leningrad, Moscow...
 
Ok, here goes. Almost touching the third rail of Alternative History.com:
  1. You are in a position to invade Britain from Europe. Could it be done?
  2. If so where do you land?
  3. Can UK forces resist the invasion
my view is that it could be done but there are a number of large assumptions to build in:
  • Conventional war in Europe
  • NATO defeated BEFORE US reserves can arrive
  • NATO alliance fractured
  • Large number of UK/NATO troops lost in Europe
  • No chance of a second "Dunkirk"
  • RAF & RN worn down giving at least parity
  • Sufficient resources available both in men and machines
  • UK critical infrastructure degraded ( to include cyber warfare if modern enough)
  • Unwillingness of UK government to use nuclear weapons on home soil
As for the landing areas surely the best locations would be the south coast between Brighton and Folkstone ( with gaps for areas like Beachy Head). Pevensey worked well for William the B*stard after-all! This gives good ground for your landings and a short route to London. Obviously inland you have a modern and hastily established GHQ stop line and some kind of citadel ring around London ( if we have enough time to throw something together) to beat but if you get ashore quickly enough, in enough numbers and with armour and air support I think you can breach that obstacle.

Surely the best chance is for UK forces ( and whatever else NATO wise can be found) is to beat the invasion before or as it happens. Once ashore I think we are done for.

We could try and hang on till the US cavalry rides to the rescue but we cant trade much space for time and we don't have the resources to expend in a slogging match. I don't think we could use nuclear ( or biological/chemical) weapons on the invasion as that would lead to the loss of everything via a nuclear response. With enemy submarines/naval forces in the Atlantic our supply lines are at risk meaning that even if we can hang on we might run out of food and oil and ammunition before help can arrive.

This is more of an intellectual exercise than anything else and you are welcome to pick any time period post WW2. If you really want to you are welcome to irradiate large parts of our wonderful country to further your aims but I would prefer a conventional war as I would like to have a chance of living through it!

Finally: THIS IS NOT A CERTAIN HATED SEA MAMMAL THREAD. REPEAT THIS IS NOT A CERTAIN HATED SEA MAMMAL THREAD. SET FOR DEFCON 2!
The UK govt might be unwilling to use nuclear weapons on their own soil but does that mean they wouldn't ever use them in the context of this thread / scenario ? (Perhaps one scenario might be an invasion was sustained via the Chunnel. I could see a case being made for nuking each end of the tunnel.)
 

Nick P

Donor
So uh... did England forget it has its own nuclear arsenal MORE then capable of making any attempt at invading not remotely worth it by the Soviets? I somehow doubt raising a flag over London is worth Minsk, Leningrad, Moscow...

I'd need to read it again to answer that for certain having lost my copy somewhere. From vague memory it was also a weak Labour govt (hellbent on nuclear disarmament at that time) that gave in for the hope of a Socialist Britain rather than a nuclear wasteland. Union activists, student demos and fifth columnists played their part too IIRC. Gardner was not a fan of the left-wing and one scene shows the Redgrave family hand in hand with Soviet officers at a play.

BTW, the US title was The Last Trump....
 

GarethC

Donor
Sure it can be done.
1) Conventional war in Europe in May 1984 after Chernenko becomes irrational from side effects of medication for his range of cardiopulmonary ailments but purges Gorbachev and other moderates.
  • Soviet maskirovka largely unsuccessful. Operational surprise is not gained. NATO mobilisation is well underway before H-hour.
  • NATO air power notably successful at winning air superiority in daytime.
  • West German bridge spans are successfully demolished in the retreat; Warsaw Pact main formations attack through unsurprising routes without NBC clearance of prepared defences.
  • NATO air power also notably successful at precision munitions usage against Pact engineering units and river crossings. Pact forces in some cases have not made their day 1 objectives by day 4.
  • Pact decision to delay surge of Red Banner Northern Fleet SSNs until start of ground campaign in hindsight is a mistake as losses in GIUK gap to MPA, CVH groups, STANAVFORLANT SAG, SSNs in the Norwegian Sea, and barrier SSK patrols south of the Gap mean REFORGER convoys are mostly successful.
  • Norway taken by naval infantry in stepping-stone coastal campaign but USN CVBGs defeat Frontal Aviation over Norway, neutralize Kirov SAG around the North Cape with air strikes, and then suppress Olenya, Severomorsk-1 and other Kola Peninsula air bases.
  • SNA bomber regiments are combat-ineffective after airstrikes and failure to penetrate F-14/AIM-54 screen.
  • Warsaw Pact resoundingly defeated, Poland and East Germany leave Pact, civil unrest in Soviet Union.
2) After the armistice, the miners' strike escalates to widespread civil unrest against Thatcher government.
  • Public condemnations of US and UK governments by popular figures (Radio DJ Steve Wright, footballers Ray Clemence and John Barnes) as well as a range of traditional politicians and pundits establish a narrative that the war was largely brought about by Reaganite jingoism.
  • Poll figures show significant drop in Conservative support from previous year's election figure of 42%
  • Leak of plan to return BAOR to use in extremis against protestors; quote attributed to Nicholas Ridley (though denied) that "a few bursts from a Bren should clear [Trafalgar] Square" leads to more demonstrations.
  • Coordinated strikes across multiple industries (steel, dockworkers, transport) are found unlawful.
  • General strike has mixed results but strongly negative impact on view of government - in some areas services stop and in others police units, often special constables or other additional-force units are identified with significant violence.
  • Most unions have their assets frozen after High Court action to punish unlawful strikes.
  • Conservatives polling at <30%
  • A march is dispersed with mounted police in Parliament Square, after which there is widely reported property damage and looting.
  • Several journalists are arrested for reporting outside the TtW restrictions on police actions in the Parliament Square unrest.
  • Polling is suspended and reporting on it is banned under TtW restrictions.
  • West Midlands police announce a series of public order measures to reduce tension including water and first aid stations along march routes in Birmingham and Coventry.
  • South Wales Police's Deputy Chief Constable marches along with protestors in Cardiff (taking a day's leave) and is sacked and detained.
  • Rioting in Brixton; Metropolitan Police officers fail to respond. Explanations of manpower shortages as many serving officers are in Germany with the TA are rejected by Home Secretary Leon Brittan
  • Territorial Army units are called upon to provide additional security under Transition To War powers. Neil Kinnock calls for resignation of the Government (as the war is quite clearly over). He is detained the same day.
  • Debarking Army units are called upon to attend a riot in Dover. Government announces three fatalities. BBC local radio has an interview with a local doctor who confirms over thirty deaths.
  • Angry meeting at the Cabinet Office Meeting Room; Chief of Defence Staff Sir Edwim Bramall resigns. Rumours that he condemned the Prime Minister's call to maintain the Transition To War powers and extend them to deal with the national unrest.
  • Many MPs and Lords (from all parties) are detained under TtW powers. The Government retains a sitting majority in the House.
  • Parachute Regiment officers decline to order troops to open fire on demonstration on the Mall. Richard, Duke of Gloucester receives a list of demands from the demonstrators on behalf of Her Majesty.
  • Sir Robert Armstrong, Cabinet Secretary, invites a number of the great and the good - from all three parties, the trades union movement, the civil service, the police, and the armed forces - to a series of low-key meetings in Whitehall.
  • Queen addresses the nation, saying that in light of the deteriorating public safety situation, she has dissolved Parliament with the agreement of a broad section of all political parties and other parts of British society.
  • Calls for an end to disorder and industrial action from across the left are largely successful.
  • Territorial Army forces are largely demobilised
  • General election, Labour government returned with resounding majority, SDP/Liberal Alliance second largest number of seats, Kinnock Prime Minister.
  • Detention of several notable Conservative government figures (Thatcher, Brittan, Heseltine, etc); announcement of withdrawal from NATO, unilateral nuclear disarmament, withdrawal from EU, renationalisation of privatised industries.
3) Operation Concord, the US cross-Channel invasion of Great Britain to remove the Communist conspiracy and restore a democratic government, using forces deployed to Germany.
 
OK.

Due to worse decisions and different leaders the UK and US screw up the endgame of WW2 and the USSR falls into civil war after the assassination of Stalin.

The surrender of Germany was followed almost immediately by wholesale Allied withdrawal; this enabled a relatively small group of determined men and women, believers in the efficiency of the totalitarian nation-state, to gather in Spain and effectively decapitate the weakening government, and establishing the Trigon Republic.
That this action was possible was due primarily to quarrels that broke out among- the former Allies, a disinclination on the part of any one nation to accept the responsibility for the direct physical action necessary to suppress this new group, and finally the clever use of propaganda and slogans which freely used the terms "democracy," "the people," and other similar terms.

As soon as the new government had firmly consolidated its position in Spain and Spanish Morocco, it began to infiltrate to the north and east. A fertile field for their well planned and executed propaganda was found in southern France, northern Italy, Bavaria, and the Tyrol, where United States occupational forces were rapidly being redeployed. A strong secession movement grew almost overnight in those areas which the weakened central governments of France and Italy and the ineffective provisional government of Bavaria were powerless to prevent. The natural revulsion of these peoples toward communism asserted itself and provided a strong psychological weapon for the organizers. All races and classes were appealed to.
After a brief but violent uprising in early 1946, aided and controlled from the Trigonist capital by means of a highly trained fifth column, these two areas were granted independence, promptly applied for union with Trigon, and were admitted to the Republic.

Immediately upon the successful conclusion of this venture, the Trigonists entered upon a well-balanced and carefully controlled period of intense development and organization of all resources and phases of national life. The immediate goal of national unity and relative self-sufficiency was quickly obtained. In contrast to its neighbors, Trigon was reasonably prosperous and its people happy and contented with the new government which started fulfilling its initial promises. Of course, one distinct advantage enjoyed by the new nation was that the bulk of its lands had escaped the destruction of war which had so severely impaired the national economy of other European nations.
Trigon was in a peculiar position in the world, as the state's able leaders had foreseen. Initially backed in secret by the western allied powers as a buffer against the chaos of the Eastern and Slavic nations and the continued threat of communism, Trigon was even more secretly supported by the rump Comintern as an acceptable vehicle for the spread of communism throughout Catholic Europe and as a buffer to the wealthy western allies. Trigon engaged in a race against time, to become a well established power when the dull and war-weary former allies realized her true ambition and organised to put her down. Her leaders believed that she must strike before that day. Her blow must be against the most powerful nation. While she was doing so the others must be kept placated. The nation to be struck must not be allowed to reach her offensive potential in order to lead the strike against the new nation.

This would lead to the carefully planned campaign against the United Kingdom; devastated by the expenditure of blood and treasure needed to win the World War and now almost bankrupt. The initial states of the plan were threefold:
  • To create unrest, social, political and economic within Britain, weakening the country from inside
  • To create unrest in British colonies and Dominions, leading to the deployment of available British forces away from the Home Islands
  • To isolate Britain from it's former ally, the United States
There were numerous facets to this plan; the support for the resurgent Blueshirt movement in Ireland, and the ramping up of tensions between Britain and Ireland, simultaneous with the building of support for Ireland within the US. The deliberate worsening of tensions and unrest in the British territories of India and Palestine, including false flag terror attacks in the latter, biological sabotage of food supplies in the former and gunrunning in both. The Labour victory in the British election of 1945 was used to instill fears of socialist and communist influence in Britain to American eyes. Soon after this the revelations of Britons within the Manhattan Project spying (like Fuchs, May, Pontecorvo and Hall) for the USSR were made public, leading to the unilateral decision of the US to terminate British access to atomic energy programmes and imprison 'suspect' persons in the US indefinitely. This cooled off UK-US relations for years to come, and began a series of tit-for-tat actions that effectively ended the alliance and ended hopes for the nascent United Nations Organisation.


To Be Continued (well maybe).
 
Sure it can be done.
1) Conventional war in Europe in May 1984 after Chernenko becomes irrational from side effects of medication for his range of cardiopulmonary ailments but purges Gorbachev and other moderates.
  • Soviet maskirovka largely unsuccessful. Operational surprise is not gained. NATO mobilisation is well underway before H-hour.
  • NATO air power notably successful at winning air superiority in daytime.
  • West German bridge spans are successfully demolished in the retreat; Warsaw Pact main formations attack through unsurprising routes without NBC clearance of prepared defences.
  • NATO air power also notably successful at precision munitions usage against Pact engineering units and river crossings. Pact forces in some cases have not made their day 1 objectives by day 4.
  • Pact decision to delay surge of Red Banner Northern Fleet SSNs until start of ground campaign in hindsight is a mistake as losses in GIUK gap to MPA, CVH groups, STANAVFORLANT SAG, SSNs in the Norwegian Sea, and barrier SSK patrols south of the Gap mean REFORGER convoys are mostly successful.
  • Norway taken by naval infantry in stepping-stone coastal campaign but USN CVBGs defeat Frontal Aviation over Norway, neutralize Kirov SAG around the North Cape with air strikes, and then suppress Olenya, Severomorsk-1 and other Kola Peninsula air bases.
  • SNA bomber regiments are combat-ineffective after airstrikes and failure to penetrate F-14/AIM-54 screen.
  • Warsaw Pact resoundingly defeated, Poland and East Germany leave Pact, civil unrest in Soviet Union.
2) After the armistice, the miners' strike escalates to widespread civil unrest against Thatcher government.
  • Public condemnations of US and UK governments by popular figures (Radio DJ Steve Wright, footballers Ray Clemence and John Barnes) as well as a range of traditional politicians and pundits establish a narrative that the war was largely brought about by Reaganite jingoism.
  • Poll figures show significant drop in Conservative support from previous year's election figure of 42%
  • Leak of plan to return BAOR to use in extremis against protestors; quote attributed to Nicholas Ridley (though denied) that "a few bursts from a Bren should clear [Trafalgar] Square" leads to more demonstrations.
  • Coordinated strikes across multiple industries (steel, dockworkers, transport) are found unlawful.
  • General strike has mixed results but strongly negative impact on view of government - in some areas services stop and in others police units, often special constables or other additional-force units are identified with significant violence.
  • Most unions have their assets frozen after High Court action to punish unlawful strikes.
  • Conservatives polling at <30%
  • A march is dispersed with mounted police in Parliament Square, after which there is widely reported property damage and looting.
  • Several journalists are arrested for reporting outside the TtW restrictions on police actions in the Parliament Square unrest.
  • Polling is suspended and reporting on it is banned under TtW restrictions.
  • West Midlands police announce a series of public order measures to reduce tension including water and first aid stations along march routes in Birmingham and Coventry.
  • South Wales Police's Deputy Chief Constable marches along with protestors in Cardiff (taking a day's leave) and is sacked and detained.
  • Rioting in Brixton; Metropolitan Police officers fail to respond. Explanations of manpower shortages as many serving officers are in Germany with the TA are rejected by Home Secretary Leon Brittan
  • Territorial Army units are called upon to provide additional security under Transition To War powers. Neil Kinnock calls for resignation of the Government (as the war is quite clearly over). He is detained the same day.
  • Debarking Army units are called upon to attend a riot in Dover. Government announces three fatalities. BBC local radio has an interview with a local doctor who confirms over thirty deaths.
  • Angry meeting at the Cabinet Office Meeting Room; Chief of Defence Staff Sir Edwim Bramall resigns. Rumours that he condemned the Prime Minister's call to maintain the Transition To War powers and extend them to deal with the national unrest.
  • Many MPs and Lords (from all parties) are detained under TtW powers. The Government retains a sitting majority in the House.
  • Parachute Regiment officers decline to order troops to open fire on demonstration on the Mall. Richard, Duke of Gloucester receives a list of demands from the demonstrators on behalf of Her Majesty.
  • Sir Robert Armstrong, Cabinet Secretary, invites a number of the great and the good - from all three parties, the trades union movement, the civil service, the police, and the armed forces - to a series of low-key meetings in Whitehall.
  • Queen addresses the nation, saying that in light of the deteriorating public safety situation, she has dissolved Parliament with the agreement of a broad section of all political parties and other parts of British society.
  • Calls for an end to disorder and industrial action from across the left are largely successful.
  • Territorial Army forces are largely demobilised
  • General election, Labour government returned with resounding majority, SDP/Liberal Alliance second largest number of seats, Kinnock Prime Minister.
  • Detention of several notable Conservative government figures (Thatcher, Brittan, Heseltine, etc); announcement of withdrawal from NATO, unilateral nuclear disarmament, withdrawal from EU, renationalisation of privatised industries.
3) Operation Concord, the US cross-Channel invasion of Great Britain to remove the Communist conspiracy and restore a democratic government, using forces deployed to Germany.


I think the problem with this is that if the USSR get cranky and invades (and is quickly defeated without apparent widespread conventional destruction let along Apocalyptic Nuclear fire). Western governments and the state in general will be politically riding v.high and there won't be condemnation and unrest. The miners strike wont spark national unrest because to be blunt most of the rest of the country doesn't care enough about the strikers, it's even less likely given the point above. Oddly the Tory policy against the UK mining industry might not even be the same as OTL as even a limited conventional war between NATO and the Warsaw pact fought in grena might well effect cheaper coal imports making UK coal more cost effective (that said Thatcher had it out for the miners and the industry at a policy level, so maybe not).


There's also the point that if the Warsaw pact in breaking up and the USSR is going through civil unrest, I doubt NATO (recover from fighting a conventional war) is going invade one of it's own over a "Communist conspiracy" as the fight against international communism has kind of already looking good!
 
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Anaxagoras

Banned
I would normally suggest using razor sharp wit. But no nation has wit that can match that of the British, so it's a lost cause.
 
Have you read All Our Tomorrows by Ted Allbeury?

It's the early 80's. Britain has left NATO, abandoned nuclear weapons and declared neutrality. It is still the sick man of Europe and has quit the EEC. The borders are closed to all traffic. The unions hold the country to ransom and nobody is working. The Labour Government are lame ducks. Major riots cripple the country and the Police are increasingly powerless. Even the British Army cannot help.
The Soviet Union "persuade" the Prime Minister to invite them in to provide security and stability. They arrive by airlift into Heathrow Airport and by sea into the ports.

Or there's Golgotha by John Gardner.
The USSR smashes its way through Europe. The USA has left NATO and cannot help. The Red Army stands on the Channel in France. Britain surrenders rather be utterly destroyed like Germany in nuclear attacks.
Long time since I read it but IIRC there were also some political shenanigans and a weak Prime Minister.

thanks - i will look those out.

The UK govt might be unwilling to use nuclear weapons on their own soil but does that mean they wouldn't ever use them in the context of this thread / scenario ? (Perhaps one scenario might be an invasion was sustained via the Chunnel. I could see a case being made for nuking each end of the tunnel.)

Why nuke the tunnel ends? I could close the tunnel very easily and effectively without such overkill!
 
A few thoughts on this. First, this is not going to happen as long as NATO exists and the US is a full participating member in it. The UK has its own strategic nuclear deterrent, but it also is under the US nuclear umbrella. In any Soviet-era scenario, the UK's own nuclear forces, plus those of the United States, plus those of France (presumably precluding a crossing of the Rhine) ensure that there will be no invasion of the UK without a defeat of NATO or its dissolution or the US withdrawing from it. Otherwise, the potential cost is simply too high and the benefits too few for the Soviets/WP to try.

If one is trying to conjure up a more contemporary scenario, pretty much the same thing holds. You've got to kill off NATO or end US participation in it for political or other reasons and then neutralize whatever remains of NATO's European component. If this is an "unnamed nation seeks to neutralize the UK as an adversary" scenario, it is easier and less risky to simply meddle in UK elections and seek to install a friendly government. There are, as we have seen in Europe lately, plenty of political movements of an authoritarian bent which promote illiberal values and have less than a full commitment to democracy, liberal values and collective security (NATO) upon which such an effort could be built.

In short, an invasion of the UK remains Sea Lion-esque in its implausibility, even today. The only way to get troops there is for the UK to be utterly alone with no effective allies and facing an imminent threat of complete nuclear destruction credible enough to force surrender. And even then, the UK has an independent nuclear deterrent that would give one pause in pursuing that approach.
 
OK.

Due to worse decisions and different leaders the UK and US screw up the endgame of WW2 and the USSR falls into civil war after the assassination of Stalin.

The surrender of Germany was followed almost immediately by wholesale Allied withdrawal; this enabled a relatively small group of determined men and women, believers in the efficiency of the totalitarian nation-state, to gather in Spain and effectively decapitate the weakening government, and establishing the Trigon Republic...
Edit:
There seems to me to be a lot of 'they just get away with it' going on here.
 
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