Post-World War II France if France doesn't fall in 1940?

CaliGuy

Banned
What does post-World War II France look like if France doesn't fall in 1940 (or later, for that matter)?

For instance:

-Does France's colonial empire last longer in this TL?
-Does post-WWII France still let go of Algeria?
-Does post-WWII France still experience an extremely massive and long-lasting baby boom?
-Does post-WWII France still experience decades of robust economic growth?

Anyway, what are your thoughts on all of this?
 
Well if France doesn't fall then the war was shorter :)

If France treated Algeria better it might have stayed as an equal, but Paris wasn't keen on that.

The more damage the more to repair the larger the rebuilding boom.
A quick war could mean, right back to the depression
 

CaliGuy

Banned
Well if France doesn't fall then the war was shorter :)

Yep. :)

If France treated Algeria better it might have stayed as an equal, but Paris wasn't keen on that.

Yeah; indeed, I find it hard to believe that--at least with such a late PoD--France would have been willing to give full citizenship to the millions of Muslims in Algeria.

The more damage the more to repair the larger the rebuilding boom.
A quick war could mean, right back to the depression

Would France's economy have been as robust in the post-WWII years without large-scale U.S. loans, though?
 
well I could see people offering money to help rebuild and invest, does this equate to stronger France?
Well.. If France doesn't fall, how quickly will it be able to push the Germans back and the combined British -French forces to defeat Germany ? Do the soviets jump in last minute?

If the German advance stalls do the Italians decide to back down quickly and quietly?
Lots of factors here.

I would assume if the Germans stall and or are pushed back some sort of compromise or deal would be made, and Germany would again be on the end of Versailles and hittler obviously gone.

However I think Austria would remain apart of Germany at this point. But everything back to that point would be undone.

There would be the boost in arms production, in under a year factories would be heard for total war, employment would be up. So net gain.

Colonies wise if it's quick and France is strong it might delay things a decade, but this won't matter if the colonies are neglected, your guess is as good as mine there.

Another issue is what does France do about the soviets in Poland?
 

CaliGuy

Banned
well I could see people offering money to help rebuild and invest, does this equate to stronger France?

To some extent.

Well.. If France doesn't fall, how quickly will it be able to push the Germans back and the combined British -French forces to defeat Germany ?

It probably depends on the outcome of the battle at Narvik as well as on what exactly the Soviets do in this TL.

Do the soviets jump in last minute?

If the war lasts long enough, Yes, very possibly.

If the German advance stalls do the Italians decide to back down quickly and quietly?

Probably Yes.

Lots of factors here.

Agreed.

I would assume if the Germans stall and or are pushed back some sort of compromise or deal would be made, and Germany would again be on the end of Versailles and hittler obviously gone.

Frankly, if the Schwarze Kapelle are actually able to overthrow Hitler and the Nazis in this TL, an interesting question would be this: Can the SK and Britain+France actually reach mutually acceptable peace terms?

However I think Austria would remain apart of Germany at this point.

Possibly; it depends on how much of the Holocaust still occurs in this TL and on how bad the Nazis are perceived by Austrians in this TL. (AFAIK, the association between the Anschluss and the Nazis--who were rightly considered to be extremely evil--was what extremely strongly eroded Austrian support for a union with Germany in the years and decades after 1945 in our TL.)

But everything back to that point would be undone.

Agreed; however, Britain and France might also demand some territorial losses from Germany in exchange for peace.

There would be the boost in arms production, in under a year factories would be heard for total war, employment would be up. So net gain.

Agreed; however, what about after the war is over?

Colonies wise if it's quick and France is strong it might delay things a decade, but this won't matter if the colonies are neglected, your guess is as good as mine there.

Agreed.

Another issue is what does France do about the soviets in Poland?

Presumably complain but not much else, no?
 
Well since the war was fought for Poland, that would be hard to sell, and considering communism was something the west hated even more than nazis in 1940, you might get a help us liberate all Poland to one or the other in exchange for peace.

The soviets were the dread of all of Europe. So something would have to give.

As for war production, what they do normally, retool and produce for consumers on government investment. This quick war would result in a stand off with the soviets so I'm thinking the French wouldn't want to look week.

The British would happily go back home and deal with domestic issues.
 
They might also annex the Saar outright.
Danzig would be gone.

Quick war no American involvement would be a boost to Europe, the Japanese might only deal with China as Europe isn't distracted if it's over by dec 41.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
Well since the war was fought for Poland, that would be hard to sell, and considering communism was something the west hated even more than nazis in 1940, you might get a help us liberate all Poland to one or the other in exchange for peace.

Would France actually be willing to go to war against the Soviet Union after it and Britain have just defeated Germany, though?

The soviets were the dread of all of Europe. So something would have to give.

Oh, sure, everyone hated the Soviets; however, it's one thing to hate the Soviets and quite another thing to actually fight the Soviets.

As for war production, what they do normally, retool and produce for consumers on government investment. This quick war would result in a stand off with the soviets so I'm thinking the French wouldn't want to look week.

OK. Also, is that what the U.S. and Britain did after the end of WWII in our TL?

The British would happily go back home and deal with domestic issues.

What about the Communist threat, though?
 

CaliGuy

Banned
They might also annex the Saar outright.
Yes, they could; however, that might be kind of hard to do politically considering that it would either entail an expulsion of the Saar's ethnic German population or the annexation of 800,000 ethnic Germans who overwhelmingly demonstrated their loyalty to Germany in a 1935 referendum.
 
This is the 1940's people had no qualms with such things, except the people forced to move. Different era.

This also would delay the bomb.

I would still be concerned about the soviets, this is 1940, the soviets invaded Poland too and the baltics this puts them on the same level as Germany. If the Germans loose how can the soviets justify being aggressors and on the German side?
 
This also would delay the bomb.
Not by much - if France doesn't fall the UK has a lot more money and resources, giving the MAUD committee (who had made all the right guesses about how to build a bomb) a big push. You end up with the first nuclear bomb being set off by the UK in 1945 or 46, probably with the war having finished a few years before.
 
I know some French from my high school lessons; thus, while I can understand some of what is written there, could you please give me a brief summary?

That's difficult, since it is a project that has been going on for decades, literally, and has now generated two main published books (covering 39 to 42), two side novels and two comic book (with more planned).

In short form, due to Renault pro-armistice mistress early death, France does not surrender in June 1940 (Petain is arrested) and the government and as much of the armed forces and industries as possible flee to North Africa. Cue various butterfly effects in Africa and Greece and Barbarossa being delayed by a year. The main TL is currently in late 43 (with russian offensives in the East and the first allied landing - mainly french-american - in Provence ), but some of the discussions on the forum concern the post war period, with one poster going over european construction until around 2019, IIRC....

It's a very well researched and simulated TL, including a lot of research.
 

longsword14

Banned
It is hard to see the same French Army doing well enough to push the Germans badly .
Units simply could not do what was asked of them. The political setting had great impact on the army, with all that came with it.
A better POD would be for a shift in French politics that has them better prepared for war (and an army that does not demand the entire thing to be mobilised).
 
Top