Post War Japan

Could it have been possible, had the US wanted to counter the USSR in the Pacific via proxy, for the Japanese to produce a navy capable of holding off the Soviet Pacific fleet?

what steps would need to be taken following 1946?
 
Isn’t the JMSDF an extremely capable anti submarine navy? So perhaps allow Carriers and make sure Article 9 is not passed so the Defence Forces can be more prepared and have improved logistics etc.
 
The main problem is twofold: too few ships, and Article 9…*with several knock-on effects stemming from Article 9.

One on one (or one on two) the JMSDF would kick the Russian Pacific Fleet's ass, but they'd need a bigger navy, carriers, and no Article 9 to win overall especially taking into account the Far East Russian aerial forces.

They would also need a cultural change, as typically SDF forces are undermanned due to the low level of respect for people who enter the SDF.


So let's say the Americans switch tacks. Instead of abandoning Japan to go fight communism and leaving their cultural re-engineering half-finished, they change their attitude and begin to work on the Japanese as a proxy.

This results in no Article 9, and perhaps a greater level of value given to fighting communism thus resulting in making the SDF a better career choice.

Also, and very importantly, per unit costs of Japanese made military technology are roughly 3-10 times the Western standard due to an inability to export them. Solve this (along with the no more than 1% of GDP on armed forces problem) and the Japanese Navy will be bigger than the UK Navy, and as technologically advanced as the American Navy.

Early changes are slim. The Japanese, regardless of Article 9, are far too worried about rebuilding their economy. Plus, obviously, the post WW2 Russian Pacific Fleet is a joke.

However by the 1970s I could see the Japanese building up. They could join in on the UK through-deck cruiser program (perhaps buying some Harriers) which possibly makes it cheap enough for the UK to pick up a fourth carrier, or re-consider earlier a new CVA project.

Submarine technology, if pushed harder by the Japanese and working with the Swedes or Germans, may see AIP/Stirling engine earlier which would result in a formidable submarine force.

Due to persistent Japanese worries they may also spend more money on developing theatre-level ABM defences, perhaps based partially on the American Sentinel/Safehold programs. Amusingly this would see Japan (as well as Moscow) the only places in the world even a little protected against ICBMs, which might spur the Americans into a larger ABM or SDI effort.

This should also mean earlier/better alt-Aegis or Japanese made battlegroup level air defence for the JMSDF.

By the 1980s it would not be unreasonable to see a proper Japanese carrier or two in the 60,000+ range (possibly in a joint effort with France and/or the UK). It would probably be conventionally powered, probably carrying naval variants of the F-1 and F-4EJ, before shifting to a naval variant of the F-2 (aka F-16 Agile Falcon) or perhaps they buy Super Tomcats. An early UK CVA project, more or less, is what I'd guess it would resemble.


This alt JMSDF would absolutely kick the Russian Pacific Fleet's ass.
 
I love the idea of my plans for post-war Japan. I largely focused on the social engineering aspect, but I can try again.

In my short ideas (which I'm working into Age of Legends, but I have a nasty case of no-idea-where-to-begin on that one), had Japan taking their WWII defeat hard, and the Americans making more of an effort in rebuilding Japan. Japan pre-WWII takes in the Jewish immigrants that Europe doesn't want (good deal for Hitler, in many respects), and results in ~500,000 Jews in Manchuria, who were staunchly pro-Japan (if they saved me from the gas chambers I would be too) and fight like mad, which along with the Koreans and Chinese who actually worked with Japan, help them accept that after WWII their racism is not only unfounded, it's holding them back. Like Meiji thought, the best way to advance Japan is to get the skills and people to make the country better.

Japan post-war stays relatively isolated, but as Japan grows into an economic power in the 1960s and 1970s their immigration doors open, starting with the Nikkeijin and the other South Americans, Jews (mostly disenchanted Israelis in many cases), Koreans, Filipinos and a handful of whites, mostly Australian and Americans. Japan's boom economy in the 1980s turns this flow into a big river, which is how Japan not only becomes an industrial power but also a cultural one - Tokyo along with Mumbai and Los Angeles are the world's film capitals. Japan by 2000 is home to some 165 million, has a $6 Trillion economy and is considered one of the world's most dynamic nations.

Now, this Japan, minus Article 9, would have a massive navy - not USN size, but bigger than anybody else by miles, even well beyond the RN or the Soviet Navy - simply out of need to protect its shipping lanes and citizens abroad. With Japan being so close to the PRC, one of the needs would be to have some power projection, but mostly the Japanese would be focused on homeland security, which means a huge fleet of destroyers, frigates and submarines, both SSN and SSK. I'm thinking that the Japanese Navy has a few big cruisers to act as destroyer leaders and flagships (I'm thinking something like the American USS Long Beach here), but their navy will be primarily based on defense and protection of its shipping routes.
 
Isn’t the JMSDF an extremely capable anti submarine navy?

Indeed it is.

So perhaps allow Carriers and make sure Article 9 is not passed so the Defence Forces can be more prepared and have improved logistics etc. [/SIZE][/FONT]

There's still debate here in Japan about whether carriers come under Article 9 or not, but really, it's been so undercut, abused, and ignored for the last 59 years that you could probably get a carrier. As it is now, they're getting the Hyūga-class "helicopter destroyer" (actually an amphib assault/helo carrier they called it a "destroyer" to get around objections re Art. 9).
 
Indeed it is.

There's still debate here in Japan about whether carriers come under Article 9 or not, but really, it's been so undercut, abused, and ignored for the last 59 years that you could probably get a carrier. As it is now, they're getting the Hyūga-class "helicopter destroyer" (actually an amphib assault/helo carrier they called it a "destroyer" to get around objections re Art. 9).

Very good at ASW, sure, but the JMSDF is small (smaller than their budget would have you believe, due to reasons I outlined above) and they're only getting AIP subs now so I imagine late flight Akula's would probably slip in…ironically, due to technology they sold the Russians.

Heh. I like helicopter destroyer almost as much as through deck cruiser. But carrier? With jet planes? As I recall the JMSDF still doesn't carry Tomahawks, I think a proper carrier is going a little too far without changes further back.
 
Very good at ASW, sure, but the JMSDF is small (smaller than their budget would have you believe, due to reasons I outlined above) and they're only getting AIP subs now so I imagine late flight Akula's would probably slip in…ironically, due to technology they sold the Russians.

Oh indeed.

Heh. I like helicopter destroyer almost as much as through deck cruiser. But carrier? With jet planes? As I recall the JMSDF still doesn't carry Tomahawks, I think a proper carrier is going a little too far without changes further back.

The Hyūga are a ski ramp away for a UK carrier, and supposedly aimed at carrying attack aircraft...

"It cannot be denied that the launch of Hyuga is targeted at carrying the Harriers or F-35s in the future," the analyst said. "It is only natural given Japan-U.S. joint operations in the future."
http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.com/topic/4621
 
The Hyūga are a ski ramp away for a UK carrier, and supposedly aimed at carrying attack aircraft...

http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.com/topic/4621

Cool, but…*F-35s or Harriers? What useless planes to have onboard a carrier against modern Su-27 variants. As the Australians, if they ever get in a regional shooting war, will realize pretty fast now that they're stuck with Hornets and F-35s IIRC.

Better to keep it as an ASW and amphib ship and look into buying a real carrier. Then you can stuck a bunch of F-35s onboard the Hyūga for ground attack operations. Or you could put the F-35s on now, and watch them get blown out of the sky by modern Flankers if there was an actual shooting war.
 
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